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I feel like reason you can move is because you haven't put all your eggs in their walled garden, not that they don't have one. I know people who either won't or

I feel like reason you can move is because you haven't put all your eggs in their walled garden, not that they don't have one. I know people who either won't or have regretted switching from an iPhone because they have trouble talking to their friend who only use iMessage. I think Apple is only increasing their walled garden into more areas by expanding into music streaming, TV, etc. You can still use their hardware and OS without fully buying into their walled garden though and maintain more freedom, as you seem to do! edit: I should mention that while I don't like their walled gardens in general, I don't mind them for other people except iMessage. iMessage makes me fairly angry because they're using & dividing people's social connections for profit.

thephyber 7y ago
iMessage is backwards compatible with SMS. Are you talking about the unwillingness of users to migrate their chats to WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc? That’s not a walled garden - that’s the natural hesitance to leave any comfortable/familiar system that any social media / network effect site/app has. It’s more like a psychological moat. And even the app you want Apple users to migrate to has it.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  He's talking about the fact that iMessage only runs on Apple hardware. That's what a walled garden is.
  - oneplane 7y ago
    iMessage with macOS works fine on non-Apple hardware. Perhaps you intended to write iOS and the iOS version of iMessage only runs on Apple hardware? Or was it more a point of legality? Or end-user acceptance? Or availability to the general public?
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      Is there an iMessage app my mom can install on her Android phone? It feels like you're intentionally acting obtuse at this point.
      - oneplane 7y ago
        No, I'm just stating facts. iMessage runs on multiple Apple operating systems, and while you can't run the iOS family reliably on anything but Apple hardware, you can run macOS on non-Apple hardware. I'm intentionally trying to point out that the generalised statement was wrong without context, while at the same time providing wording that would probably match the intended message instead of the one that ended up getting posted.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        No, the statement was plenty right, I just wasn't expecting someone to read it in bad faith and then waste a bunch of time by nitpicking. If you're a mobile app manufacturer who owns a large platform, and your app doesn't run on the other large platform, you're a walled garden.
        tekknik 7y ago
        no it’s wrong and given your precious posts you’re obviously an apple hater. i hope you realize you’re not special and anytime an apple story comes out, your type crawls outta the woodwork to express their jealousy or whatever is the driving force behind your valueless comments. please go back to your android / windows / linux / haiku / whatever world and leave the rest of us in peace
    - e_y_ 7y ago
      Sure, you can climb in and out of a walled garden with a grappling hook, but that's not really the point.
  - tekknik 7y ago
    ok? and googles messaging app only runs on android. the app doesn’t require the recipient to have imessage, however if they do you get benefits (like increased message size) over sms due to limitations in sms.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      Which one? Hangouts runs on iOS. The one for SMS and MMS does not but does Apple even allow that?
      - tekknik 7y ago
        hangouts is dead, so again can i run googles sms app on an iphone? further google killed xmpp support which would’ve allowed 3rd party clients to use their message services
        anoncake 7y ago
        I admit I haven't checked what Google's messaging offerings are this month.
rubyn00bie 7y ago
iMessage is the greatest thing to happen to text messaging since text messaging itself. I refuse to use any Facebook owned product to communicate; so, that pretty much only leaves me SMS and iMessage. I think you should be pissed at bottom barrel Android manufacturers putting shitty messaging interfaces on Android phones more than Apple for having a good messaging system.
- noelsusman 7y ago
  iMessage has done more to hold back messaging in the US than anything else. Even if Google was competent at messaging it wouldn't matter because iOS users wouldn't switch and Apple refuses to open up iMessage to non-Apple devices. I'm still using SMS for most of my messaging, and I primarily blame Apple for that.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    Are you asking for Apple to pay for infrastructure for non-customers to use? Or even further, that Apple design and support an Android iMessage app?
    - TurningCanadian 7y ago
      Google's messenger apps work on iOS..
      - rubyn00bie 7y ago
        Google makes money from advertising, Apple does not... Google's incentive is to keep you using their platform across any device; because, that is what is in their best interest, they make their money from billions upon billions of small advertising interactions across a vast ocean of interconnected platforms and devices. Apple sells physical devices, it's their incentive to make sure the experience is great for whoever bought that device. They make their money from selling billions of devices... Apple's focus is on the "user," and Google's focus is on the "platform." Both have different types of lock-in, but have different reasons why. I still lost how it's Apple's problem that the standard interface of SMS/MMS is just totally shitty and not capable of doing what people want. Complain to your telecommunication, handset, and operating system providers/vendors to build or enable a better open standard (like RCS or whatever it is).
nemothekid 7y ago
>iMessage makes me fairly angry because they're using & dividing people's social connections for profit. Can you point me to a company that doesn't do this? I would think "but $hardware to use $network" is preferable to "use $network for free, but sell everything you put on the $network"
jonathankoren 7y ago
If iMessage is a walled garden, then pretty much every other messaging system is also a walled garden since the death of XMPP. Can anyone build a a third party client for WhatsApp or any other popular messaging system in 2020? Im unaware of any. In fact the top result for “third party whatsapp client” is “Use a third party WhatsApp client and be banned for life”. [0] Hardly the behavior of an open system. What your real complaint is that there isn’t an client for a nonApple operating system. It’s reasonable to not want to switch OSes, but there are many apps that are iOS exclusive, as there are many android exclusive apps, but I wouldn’t call them “walled gardens”. Also, iMessage doesn’t make money. It an e2e encryption app with sms support. Because it’s provided by Apple, a company that famously makes money on hardware rather than services, there’s no incentive to mine your (and your connections’) data for profit, like say WhatsApp, or the others, so it is incorrect to claim they are “using & dividing people’s social connections for profit”. If anyone is dividing their connections based on iMessage, it’s your friends. [0] https://www.cultofmac.com/314343/use-a-third-party-whatsapp-client-and-you-could-be-banned-for-life/amp/ https://www.cultofmac.com/314343/use-a-third-party-whatsapp-...
- anoncake 7y ago
  > If iMessage is a walled garden, then pretty much every other messaging system is also a walled garden since the death of XMPP. No whataboutism please.
- miloignis 7y ago
  A bit of a late reply, but there were a couple of points that I wanted to respond to. The first is that I'm not holding up WhatsApp as a great example! I use, promote, and have done a bit of development on Matrix, a true open messaging system. If XMPP or IRC floats your boat, I'm all for that as well, and I'll be able to chat with you over the XMPP and IRC Matrix bridges because all 3 are open systems. Second is how high the wall of your walled garden is matters, and matters a lot. Sure I can't write my own WhatsApp client, but I can download the app relatively easily on both Android and iOS. To communicate with people over iMessage I would have to buy a different phone and accept everything that comes with it (including the rest of the walled garden, appwise, oswise, etc). Finally, when I said they were doing it for profit I meant that the fact that iMessage only works with Apple products makes it such that if you want a good communication experience with your Apple-only friends you also have to buy into the ecosystem, and once you have it's hard to get out because you might lose those connections.

thephyber 7y ago

iMessage is backwards compatible with SMS. Are you talking about the unwillingness of users to migrate their chats to WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc? That’s not a walled garden - that’s the natural hesitance to leave any comfortable/familiar system that any social media / network effect site/app has. It’s more like a psychological moat. And even the app you want Apple users to migrate to has it.

StavrosK 7y ago
He's talking about the fact that iMessage only runs on Apple hardware. That's what a walled garden is.
- oneplane 7y ago
  iMessage with macOS works fine on non-Apple hardware. Perhaps you intended to write iOS and the iOS version of iMessage only runs on Apple hardware? Or was it more a point of legality? Or end-user acceptance? Or availability to the general public?
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    Is there an iMessage app my mom can install on her Android phone? It feels like you're intentionally acting obtuse at this point.
    - oneplane 7y ago
      No, I'm just stating facts. iMessage runs on multiple Apple operating systems, and while you can't run the iOS family reliably on anything but Apple hardware, you can run macOS on non-Apple hardware. I'm intentionally trying to point out that the generalised statement was wrong without context, while at the same time providing wording that would probably match the intended message instead of the one that ended up getting posted.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        No, the statement was plenty right, I just wasn't expecting someone to read it in bad faith and then waste a bunch of time by nitpicking. If you're a mobile app manufacturer who owns a large platform, and your app doesn't run on the other large platform, you're a walled garden.
        tekknik 7y ago
        no it’s wrong and given your precious posts you’re obviously an apple hater. i hope you realize you’re not special and anytime an apple story comes out, your type crawls outta the woodwork to express their jealousy or whatever is the driving force behind your valueless comments. please go back to your android / windows / linux / haiku / whatever world and leave the rest of us in peace
  - e_y_ 7y ago
    Sure, you can climb in and out of a walled garden with a grappling hook, but that's not really the point.
- tekknik 7y ago
  ok? and googles messaging app only runs on android. the app doesn’t require the recipient to have imessage, however if they do you get benefits (like increased message size) over sms due to limitations in sms.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Which one? Hangouts runs on iOS. The one for SMS and MMS does not but does Apple even allow that?
    - tekknik 7y ago
      hangouts is dead, so again can i run googles sms app on an iphone? further google killed xmpp support which would’ve allowed 3rd party clients to use their message services
      - anoncake 7y ago
        I admit I haven't checked what Google's messaging offerings are this month.

rubyn00bie 7y ago

iMessage is the greatest thing to happen to text messaging since text messaging itself. I refuse to use any Facebook owned product to communicate; so, that pretty much only leaves me SMS and iMessage. I think you should be pissed at bottom barrel Android manufacturers putting shitty messaging interfaces on Android phones more than Apple for having a good messaging system.

noelsusman 7y ago
iMessage has done more to hold back messaging in the US than anything else. Even if Google was competent at messaging it wouldn't matter because iOS users wouldn't switch and Apple refuses to open up iMessage to non-Apple devices. I'm still using SMS for most of my messaging, and I primarily blame Apple for that.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Are you asking for Apple to pay for infrastructure for non-customers to use? Or even further, that Apple design and support an Android iMessage app?
  - TurningCanadian 7y ago
    Google's messenger apps work on iOS..
    - rubyn00bie 7y ago
      Google makes money from advertising, Apple does not... Google's incentive is to keep you using their platform across any device; because, that is what is in their best interest, they make their money from billions upon billions of small advertising interactions across a vast ocean of interconnected platforms and devices. Apple sells physical devices, it's their incentive to make sure the experience is great for whoever bought that device. They make their money from selling billions of devices... Apple's focus is on the "user," and Google's focus is on the "platform." Both have different types of lock-in, but have different reasons why. I still lost how it's Apple's problem that the standard interface of SMS/MMS is just totally shitty and not capable of doing what people want. Complain to your telecommunication, handset, and operating system providers/vendors to build or enable a better open standard (like RCS or whatever it is).

nemothekid 7y ago

>iMessage makes me fairly angry because they're using & dividing people's social connections for profit. Can you point me to a company that doesn't do this? I would think "but $hardware to use $network" is preferable to "use $network for free, but sell everything you put on the $network"

jonathankoren 7y ago

If iMessage is a walled garden, then pretty much every other messaging system is also a walled garden since the death of XMPP. Can anyone build a a third party client for WhatsApp or any other popular messaging system in 2020? Im unaware of any. In fact the top result for “third party whatsapp client” is “Use a third party WhatsApp client and be banned for life”. [0] Hardly the behavior of an open system. What your real complaint is that there isn’t an client for a nonApple operating system. It’s reasonable to not want to switch OSes, but there are many apps that are iOS exclusive, as there are many android exclusive apps, but I wouldn’t call them “walled gardens”. Also, iMessage doesn’t make money. It an e2e encryption app with sms support. Because it’s provided by Apple, a company that famously makes money on hardware rather than services, there’s no incentive to mine your (and your connections’) data for profit, like say WhatsApp, or the others, so it is incorrect to claim they are “using & dividing people’s social connections for profit”. If anyone is dividing their connections based on iMessage, it’s your friends. [0] https://www.cultofmac.com/314343/use-a-third-party-whatsapp-client-and-you-could-be-banned-for-life/amp/ https://www.cultofmac.com/314343/use-a-third-party-whatsapp-...

anoncake 7y ago
> If iMessage is a walled garden, then pretty much every other messaging system is also a walled garden since the death of XMPP. No whataboutism please.
miloignis 7y ago
A bit of a late reply, but there were a couple of points that I wanted to respond to. The first is that I'm not holding up WhatsApp as a great example! I use, promote, and have done a bit of development on Matrix, a true open messaging system. If XMPP or IRC floats your boat, I'm all for that as well, and I'll be able to chat with you over the XMPP and IRC Matrix bridges because all 3 are open systems. Second is how high the wall of your walled garden is matters, and matters a lot. Sure I can't write my own WhatsApp client, but I can download the app relatively easily on both Android and iOS. To communicate with people over iMessage I would have to buy a different phone and accept everything that comes with it (including the rest of the walled garden, appwise, oswise, etc). Finally, when I said they were doing it for profit I meant that the fact that iMessage only works with Apple products makes it such that if you want a good communication experience with your Apple-only friends you also have to buy into the ecosystem, and once you have it's hard to get out because you might lose those connections.