5 ms·

From what I understand the challenge with TB is that it's tied into Firefox' engine and that is also in parts used for the GUI (XUL). Every time there's larger

by hannob 7y ago

From what I understand the challenge with TB is that it's tied into Firefox' engine and that is also in parts used for the GUI (XUL). Every time there's larger refactoring work in FF that affects Thunderbird. And FF wants to get rid of XUL eventually.

SkyMarshal 7y ago
I thought XUL was gone with the recent change to the way addons work in Firefox?
- lowflyer 7y ago
  XUL was used all over the place, so it takes a while to fully remove it. Thunderbird updates the underlying platform only once per year, catching up with Firefox changes in the yearly major release, while Firefox does so every few weeks.
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    That's not quite accurate. Thunderbird develops its software with the tip-of-trunk Firefox code at all times. It only makes releases much less frequently than Firefox.
- thenewnewguy 7y ago
  XUL is no longer exposed to plugins (in non-ESR FF), but is still used internally in some places - where it is slowly being replaced.
- adrianmalacoda 7y ago
  It was XBL (XML Binding Language)[0] that was removed, not XUL - which is being phased out and replaced with HTML where appropriate. 0: https://briangrinstead.com/blog/xbl-in-firefox/ https://briangrinstead.com/blog/xbl-in-firefox/
dabockster 7y ago
> Every time there's larger refactoring work in FF that affects Thunderbird. Okay, that's scary. It's like a one half of a conjoined twin trying to remove the other half from their lives. Mozilla started transitioning Thunderbird out of their umbrella while TB is still highly dependent on Firefox code. Yeah, scary. Maybe we need a successor to Thunderbird? Something that's not tied to Firefox so much? Because it seems like we can't trust Mozilla and however many unpaid/underpaid volunteers to maintain it well enough.
- wsmwk 7y ago
  > Mozilla started transitioning Thunderbird out of their umbrella while TB is still highly dependent on Firefox code. If you are referring to Mozilla Messaging and the period to 2012, no the only transitioning was in terms of product functionality. The community organized in 2014, unaffiliated with Mozilla, and it's not until about 2018 when staff were hired that community leadership were able to seriously reduce technical debt. But seriously reducing dependency on Firefox code is some distance away. > Maybe we need a successor to Thunderbird? Something that's not tied to Firefox so much? You are looking a millions of dollars paid developer time. > Because it seems like we can't trust Mozilla and however many unpaid/underpaid volunteers to maintain it well enough. Mozilla are not running the show here, the community is. Perhaps it's difficult to keep up with the history, but https://blog.thunderbird.net/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/ has past relevant postings, plus developer and other mailing lists. To cite a couple, big changes in encryption https://blog.thunderbird.net/2019/10/thunderbird-enigmail-and-openpgp/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2019/10/thunderbird-enigmail-an... https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2019-December/007286.html https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2019-December... and development priorities http://lists.thunderbird.net/pipermail/maildev_lists.thunderbird.net/2019-November/002024.html http://lists.thunderbird.net/pipermail/maildev_lists.thunder... which includes a new address book. There is a significant professional development staff which is nicely paid, and the number of developers will soon double. https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/careers/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/careers/
apostacy 7y ago
I really hope that my extensions are not broken. It would kill Thunderbird. Nobody is going to come along and replace the library of amazing extensions that have been built up over the years. Unlike a web browser, email has not changed much in the last 15 years, so I don't see why development needs to advance at a high speed. I doubt that any UX fashion statements are going to be enough to make up for the huge loss of functionality.

by hannob 7y ago

SkyMarshal 7y ago

I thought XUL was gone with the recent change to the way addons work in Firefox?

lowflyer 7y ago
XUL was used all over the place, so it takes a while to fully remove it. Thunderbird updates the underlying platform only once per year, catching up with Firefox changes in the yearly major release, while Firefox does so every few weeks.
- jcranmer 7y ago
  That's not quite accurate. Thunderbird develops its software with the tip-of-trunk Firefox code at all times. It only makes releases much less frequently than Firefox.
thenewnewguy 7y ago
XUL is no longer exposed to plugins (in non-ESR FF), but is still used internally in some places - where it is slowly being replaced.
adrianmalacoda 7y ago
It was XBL (XML Binding Language)[0] that was removed, not XUL - which is being phased out and replaced with HTML where appropriate. 0: https://briangrinstead.com/blog/xbl-in-firefox/ https://briangrinstead.com/blog/xbl-in-firefox/

dabockster 7y ago

> Every time there's larger refactoring work in FF that affects Thunderbird. Okay, that's scary. It's like a one half of a conjoined twin trying to remove the other half from their lives. Mozilla started transitioning Thunderbird out of their umbrella while TB is still highly dependent on Firefox code. Yeah, scary. Maybe we need a successor to Thunderbird? Something that's not tied to Firefox so much? Because it seems like we can't trust Mozilla and however many unpaid/underpaid volunteers to maintain it well enough.

wsmwk 7y ago
> Mozilla started transitioning Thunderbird out of their umbrella while TB is still highly dependent on Firefox code. If you are referring to Mozilla Messaging and the period to 2012, no the only transitioning was in terms of product functionality. The community organized in 2014, unaffiliated with Mozilla, and it's not until about 2018 when staff were hired that community leadership were able to seriously reduce technical debt. But seriously reducing dependency on Firefox code is some distance away. > Maybe we need a successor to Thunderbird? Something that's not tied to Firefox so much? You are looking a millions of dollars paid developer time. > Because it seems like we can't trust Mozilla and however many unpaid/underpaid volunteers to maintain it well enough. Mozilla are not running the show here, the community is. Perhaps it's difficult to keep up with the history, but https://blog.thunderbird.net/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/ has past relevant postings, plus developer and other mailing lists. To cite a couple, big changes in encryption https://blog.thunderbird.net/2019/10/thunderbird-enigmail-and-openpgp/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2019/10/thunderbird-enigmail-an... https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2019-December/007286.html https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2019-December... and development priorities http://lists.thunderbird.net/pipermail/maildev_lists.thunderbird.net/2019-November/002024.html http://lists.thunderbird.net/pipermail/maildev_lists.thunder... which includes a new address book. There is a significant professional development staff which is nicely paid, and the number of developers will soon double. https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/careers/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/careers/

apostacy 7y ago

I really hope that my extensions are not broken. It would kill Thunderbird. Nobody is going to come along and replace the library of amazing extensions that have been built up over the years. Unlike a web browser, email has not changed much in the last 15 years, so I don't see why development needs to advance at a high speed. I doubt that any UX fashion statements are going to be enough to make up for the huge loss of functionality.