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I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower.

I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower. When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality, shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. > Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.

leftyted 7y ago
> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame It's not clear to me how you can confidently state something like this. The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. > LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. Like the article says, shame is amoral. It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive". > I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community. Punching someone is violent. Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is not. The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. It's also quite easy to imagine an act that is very harmful but is neither violent nor wrong.
- taurath 7y ago
  > The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. While you're right that dysphoria over physical manifestations of the wrong gender can be traumatic, in my experience its usually the experience of social shame. > It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive" I didn't. > The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. There's the 2nd definition in the dictionary: "strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force". Shame is a violent force.
loco5niner 7y ago
> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame citation needed. There are a lot of things happening internally as well.
- taurath 7y ago
  I definitely overemphasized. I'd hold that it is a primary force though, given many first hand relationships.
dleslie 7y ago
It's a matter of degrees, isn't it? Telling a child that having rotten teeth, unkempt hair, and filthy clothes will be met with social disdain is a form of shame, and it's also the truth. A little bit of awareness of the consequences of their actions in terms of how others will perceive them might aid them. Telling a child they're a horrible person for traits beyond their control, and whatever obtuse and vile repercussions the parent imagines as a result is abusive. It is probably true that the child may encounter social disdain, but the causal factors are beyond their control. Shaming them will not aid them, it will only harm them.
rayiner 7y ago
> When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality I’m from an Asian society and I’ve seen the pain the strict social framework can cause people who biologically cannot conform to social expectations. However, I feel like your phraseology sweeps more broadly than necessary. Society should think very hard about what would be good social norms, and evolve them as appropriate. (For example, the social norms against women on the front lines may need to be re-evaluated in the age of fly-by-wire F22.) And society should accommodate people who for biological reasons are different. But that does not require unstructured, wholesale accommodation of how people “choose to express their individuality.” You can accommodate people without abandoning the rule that, “in general, society expects you to be a certain way and do certain things.” Abandoning that rule is a recipe for unhappy, directionless people and a disharmonious society. The fact of the matter is that (1) society is better and more well functioning when people conform; and (2) most people are pretty similar and will be made happy by the same things. The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- taurath 7y ago
  I think you're right, and my wording isn't as precise as it could be. There's still the concept of societal violence though, where society is set up to form or force its inhabitants into shapes they would naturally not be able to contort into. Its a matter of degrees. The more a society has exacting expectations of its inhabitants, the more there will become troublesome elements. > The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” Citation please! Not my experience. > But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids. Citation please! Not my experience. Just complaining that it takes a 90th percentile income to afford housing in most areas now instead of 60th decades ago.

leftyted 7y ago

> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame It's not clear to me how you can confidently state something like this. The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. > LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. Like the article says, shame is amoral. It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive". > I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community. Punching someone is violent. Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is not. The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. It's also quite easy to imagine an act that is very harmful but is neither violent nor wrong.

taurath 7y ago
> The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. While you're right that dysphoria over physical manifestations of the wrong gender can be traumatic, in my experience its usually the experience of social shame. > It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive" I didn't. > The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. There's the 2nd definition in the dictionary: "strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force". Shame is a violent force.

loco5niner 7y ago

> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame citation needed. There are a lot of things happening internally as well.

taurath 7y ago
I definitely overemphasized. I'd hold that it is a primary force though, given many first hand relationships.

dleslie 7y ago

It's a matter of degrees, isn't it? Telling a child that having rotten teeth, unkempt hair, and filthy clothes will be met with social disdain is a form of shame, and it's also the truth. A little bit of awareness of the consequences of their actions in terms of how others will perceive them might aid them. Telling a child they're a horrible person for traits beyond their control, and whatever obtuse and vile repercussions the parent imagines as a result is abusive. It is probably true that the child may encounter social disdain, but the causal factors are beyond their control. Shaming them will not aid them, it will only harm them.

rayiner 7y ago

> When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality I’m from an Asian society and I’ve seen the pain the strict social framework can cause people who biologically cannot conform to social expectations. However, I feel like your phraseology sweeps more broadly than necessary. Society should think very hard about what would be good social norms, and evolve them as appropriate. (For example, the social norms against women on the front lines may need to be re-evaluated in the age of fly-by-wire F22.) And society should accommodate people who for biological reasons are different. But that does not require unstructured, wholesale accommodation of how people “choose to express their individuality.” You can accommodate people without abandoning the rule that, “in general, society expects you to be a certain way and do certain things.” Abandoning that rule is a recipe for unhappy, directionless people and a disharmonious society. The fact of the matter is that (1) society is better and more well functioning when people conform; and (2) most people are pretty similar and will be made happy by the same things. The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
taurath 7y ago
I think you're right, and my wording isn't as precise as it could be. There's still the concept of societal violence though, where society is set up to form or force its inhabitants into shapes they would naturally not be able to contort into. Its a matter of degrees. The more a society has exacting expectations of its inhabitants, the more there will become troublesome elements. > The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” Citation please! Not my experience. > But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids. Citation please! Not my experience. Just complaining that it takes a 90th percentile income to afford housing in most areas now instead of 60th decades ago.