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Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method, and I expect that's true for most parents. The fact that I was shamed in

Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method, and I expect that's true for most parents. The fact that I was shamed into brushing my teeth, washing my hands, not lying, and generally acting like a responsible human being doesn't mean that "I didn't change my mind". Nor does it mean that my parents perpetrated violence against me and squelched my individuality. When you feel shame it's because you accept external judgements. If you didn't accept those judgements then you wouldn't feel shame, you'd just be angry. Accepting external judgements is healthy and necessary because our self-worth is derived from our perception of how other people view us. Like any tool, shame can be misused. But, as the article lays out, it's a necessary tool. It's also highly preferable to violence. > In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt) to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior. Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence.

taurath 7y ago
I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower. When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality, shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. > Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.
- leftyted 7y ago
  > The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame It's not clear to me how you can confidently state something like this. The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. > LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. Like the article says, shame is amoral. It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive". > I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community. Punching someone is violent. Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is not. The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. It's also quite easy to imagine an act that is very harmful but is neither violent nor wrong.
  - taurath 7y ago
    > The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. While you're right that dysphoria over physical manifestations of the wrong gender can be traumatic, in my experience its usually the experience of social shame. > It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive" I didn't. > The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. There's the 2nd definition in the dictionary: "strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force". Shame is a violent force.
- loco5niner 7y ago
  > The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame citation needed. There are a lot of things happening internally as well.
  - taurath 7y ago
    I definitely overemphasized. I'd hold that it is a primary force though, given many first hand relationships.
- dleslie 7y ago
  It's a matter of degrees, isn't it? Telling a child that having rotten teeth, unkempt hair, and filthy clothes will be met with social disdain is a form of shame, and it's also the truth. A little bit of awareness of the consequences of their actions in terms of how others will perceive them might aid them. Telling a child they're a horrible person for traits beyond their control, and whatever obtuse and vile repercussions the parent imagines as a result is abusive. It is probably true that the child may encounter social disdain, but the causal factors are beyond their control. Shaming them will not aid them, it will only harm them.
- rayiner 7y ago
  > When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality I’m from an Asian society and I’ve seen the pain the strict social framework can cause people who biologically cannot conform to social expectations. However, I feel like your phraseology sweeps more broadly than necessary. Society should think very hard about what would be good social norms, and evolve them as appropriate. (For example, the social norms against women on the front lines may need to be re-evaluated in the age of fly-by-wire F22.) And society should accommodate people who for biological reasons are different. But that does not require unstructured, wholesale accommodation of how people “choose to express their individuality.” You can accommodate people without abandoning the rule that, “in general, society expects you to be a certain way and do certain things.” Abandoning that rule is a recipe for unhappy, directionless people and a disharmonious society. The fact of the matter is that (1) society is better and more well functioning when people conform; and (2) most people are pretty similar and will be made happy by the same things. The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - taurath 7y ago
    I think you're right, and my wording isn't as precise as it could be. There's still the concept of societal violence though, where society is set up to form or force its inhabitants into shapes they would naturally not be able to contort into. Its a matter of degrees. The more a society has exacting expectations of its inhabitants, the more there will become troublesome elements. > The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” Citation please! Not my experience. > But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids. Citation please! Not my experience. Just complaining that it takes a 90th percentile income to afford housing in most areas now instead of 60th decades ago.
tengbretson 7y ago
> Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. It's worse than that. Calling words violence justifies the use of "defensive", actual violence against someone that has used "violent communication" – whatever the hell that might mean at the moment.
- taurath 7y ago
  The pen is mightier than the sword.
  - tengbretson 7y ago
    That may be, but I think we can all agree that being loose with our definitions in such a way that it incentivizes "bringing a sword to a pen fight" is a bad thing.
    - MadWombat 7y ago
      Thank you so much for the "bringing a sword to a pen fight" phrase. Now I need to find a good place to use it.
- MadWombat 7y ago
  > justifies the use of "defensive" Where I grew up this was the norm. There were things that could only be said with full understanding that physical violence is the only possible response. And while I do not condone violence and would not want children to grow up in the same environment, I have to admit that the possibility of things escalating from words to punches did act as a deterrent. I also wonder if the modern zero tolerance attitude to violence is the reason for such wider spread bullying problem.
stared 7y ago
> Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method I've heard quite a few times (especially for older generations) that one learned to behave well because their parent beat them. I was raised in a guilt (rather than shame)-driven culture (Catholic), and well, while this is effective, it takes decades to undo the damage. > It's also highly preferable to violence. And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider intentionally making someone suffer. For using shames, when it hurts beyond proportions, "How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life" (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-t...) is worth reading.
- leftyted 7y ago
  > And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider *intentionally making someone suffer". All violence is physical. Metaphorically speaking of shame as violent is an attempt to make shame sound inexcusable when, in reality, shame is necessary. I don't think it's possible to do a good job raising a child without intentionally making them suffer in order to teach them things. The issue is making someone suffer more than is necessary or making them suffer for the wrong reasons. The suffering part isn't the problem.
  - maxduckworth 7y ago
    Definition of violence 1a: the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy b: an instance of violent treatment or procedure 2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE 3a: intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force the violence of the storm b: vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR also : an instance of such action or feeling c: a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE 4: undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)
    - 7y ago

taurath 7y ago

I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower. When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality, shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. > Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.

leftyted 7y ago
> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame It's not clear to me how you can confidently state something like this. The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. > LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. Like the article says, shame is amoral. It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive". > I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community. Punching someone is violent. Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is not. The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. It's also quite easy to imagine an act that is very harmful but is neither violent nor wrong.
- taurath 7y ago
  > The difficulty of coping with gender dysphoria could just as easily explain the high suicide rate among trans people. While you're right that dysphoria over physical manifestations of the wrong gender can be traumatic, in my experience its usually the experience of social shame. > It's a tool, a necessary one, and it's not helpful to label shame as "toxic and destructive" I didn't. > The fact that the latter is likely more harmful than the former does not make it violent. There's the 2nd definition in the dictionary: "strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force". Shame is a violent force.
loco5niner 7y ago
> The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame citation needed. There are a lot of things happening internally as well.
- taurath 7y ago
  I definitely overemphasized. I'd hold that it is a primary force though, given many first hand relationships.
dleslie 7y ago
It's a matter of degrees, isn't it? Telling a child that having rotten teeth, unkempt hair, and filthy clothes will be met with social disdain is a form of shame, and it's also the truth. A little bit of awareness of the consequences of their actions in terms of how others will perceive them might aid them. Telling a child they're a horrible person for traits beyond their control, and whatever obtuse and vile repercussions the parent imagines as a result is abusive. It is probably true that the child may encounter social disdain, but the causal factors are beyond their control. Shaming them will not aid them, it will only harm them.
rayiner 7y ago
> When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality I’m from an Asian society and I’ve seen the pain the strict social framework can cause people who biologically cannot conform to social expectations. However, I feel like your phraseology sweeps more broadly than necessary. Society should think very hard about what would be good social norms, and evolve them as appropriate. (For example, the social norms against women on the front lines may need to be re-evaluated in the age of fly-by-wire F22.) And society should accommodate people who for biological reasons are different. But that does not require unstructured, wholesale accommodation of how people “choose to express their individuality.” You can accommodate people without abandoning the rule that, “in general, society expects you to be a certain way and do certain things.” Abandoning that rule is a recipe for unhappy, directionless people and a disharmonious society. The fact of the matter is that (1) society is better and more well functioning when people conform; and (2) most people are pretty similar and will be made happy by the same things. The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- taurath 7y ago
  I think you're right, and my wording isn't as precise as it could be. There's still the concept of societal violence though, where society is set up to form or force its inhabitants into shapes they would naturally not be able to contort into. Its a matter of degrees. The more a society has exacting expectations of its inhabitants, the more there will become troublesome elements. > The stunning irony of millennials is that they were raised to “follow their bliss.” Citation please! Not my experience. > But they grew up, and what’s their number one complaint? That they can’t find steady work that will let them afford a house in the suburbs and a couple of kids. Citation please! Not my experience. Just complaining that it takes a 90th percentile income to afford housing in most areas now instead of 60th decades ago.

tengbretson 7y ago

> Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. It's worse than that. Calling words violence justifies the use of "defensive", actual violence against someone that has used "violent communication" – whatever the hell that might mean at the moment.

taurath 7y ago
The pen is mightier than the sword.
- tengbretson 7y ago
  That may be, but I think we can all agree that being loose with our definitions in such a way that it incentivizes "bringing a sword to a pen fight" is a bad thing.
  - MadWombat 7y ago
    Thank you so much for the "bringing a sword to a pen fight" phrase. Now I need to find a good place to use it.
MadWombat 7y ago
> justifies the use of "defensive" Where I grew up this was the norm. There were things that could only be said with full understanding that physical violence is the only possible response. And while I do not condone violence and would not want children to grow up in the same environment, I have to admit that the possibility of things escalating from words to punches did act as a deterrent. I also wonder if the modern zero tolerance attitude to violence is the reason for such wider spread bullying problem.

stared 7y ago

> Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method I've heard quite a few times (especially for older generations) that one learned to behave well because their parent beat them. I was raised in a guilt (rather than shame)-driven culture (Catholic), and well, while this is effective, it takes decades to undo the damage. > It's also highly preferable to violence. And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider intentionally making someone suffer. For using shames, when it hurts beyond proportions, "How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life" (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-t...) is worth reading.

leftyted 7y ago
> And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider *intentionally making someone suffer". All violence is physical. Metaphorically speaking of shame as violent is an attempt to make shame sound inexcusable when, in reality, shame is necessary. I don't think it's possible to do a good job raising a child without intentionally making them suffer in order to teach them things. The issue is making someone suffer more than is necessary or making them suffer for the wrong reasons. The suffering part isn't the problem.
- maxduckworth 7y ago
  Definition of violence 1a: the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy b: an instance of violent treatment or procedure 2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE 3a: intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force the violence of the storm b: vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR also : an instance of such action or feeling c: a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE 4: undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)
  - 7y ago