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"I don't know what you are trying to say here." You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. But I mentioned this time frame myself and it was the only t

"I don't know what you are trying to say here." You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. But I mentioned this time frame myself and it was the only time. >> The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. > No. It says more about Europe than China. Yes. It basically tells us, that while China was ahead, the culture had big weaknesses. So big, that they left the world for Europe. What happened to Zheng He? "Yes. China has superior products that europe desired and ran a deficit..." You are right with the deficit. They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) and only wanted to export but never buy anything. Not so different from today. They always said, in the arrogance "we don't need anything!". After the military trouble with the west, they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology.

yorwba 7y ago
> They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) Those products were superior in their respective categories of textiles, beverages and tableware in the sense that wealthy Europeans preferred them over locally made goods. > they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology. Already the Ming dynasty had bought Portuguese cannons and were using them very effectively at first against the invading Jurchens. Of course then the Jurchens got their own cannons, conquered all of China and renamed themselves Manchu, establishing the Qing dynasty. They kept buying Western weapons, ships etc. over the following centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Qing_dynasty#Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Qing_dynasty#T... However, it seems they didn't improve much on the bought technology, or didn't build up high enough production capacity. The British had started experimenting with adding steam engines to their sailboats in time for the First Opium War, which contributed to their defeat of the Chinese fleet (which included bought Western ships). If the Qing had put their energy into building an even larger fleet of steamboats, they might have been able to avoid a repeat of that defeat, but of course I have the benefit of hindsight.
elfexec 7y ago
> You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. Any time before the 1800s? > Yes. It basically tells us, that while China was ahead I thought you said they were never ahead? > the culture had big weaknesses. Every culture has weaknesses. > So big, that they left the world for Europe. What happened to Zheng He? Oh god, no wonder. You learned pop fiction history. What about zheng he? Your comment is as silly as what happened to the US flights to the moon? It's been 50 years since the last moon landing. Why do you ask? Because there is no financial reason for it. The same thing with zheng he. It was a grand naval theatrical performance which didn't pay any dividends. As for europe, you act like "culture" is why europe "explored". Why didn't europe "explore" in 1392 or 1292 or 592 or you get the idea. Didn't europe have culture back then? There was no incentive. It wasn't culture that pushed europe to "explore". It was financial incentive. The collapse of the byzantine empire and the end of the golden horde is why columbus sailed for what? Americas? No. He set sail for the east. > They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) and only wanted to export but never buy anything. A product can be unique and superior. The reason why silk and porcelain were desired was precisely because it was superior to anything in europe. Not only that europe had inferior porcelain knock-offs for hundreds of years. You know how like we have inferior chinese knock-offs today, there were inferior europe knock-offs of chinese products. It's why "fine china" was called "fine china". > They always said, in the arrogance "we don't need anything!". After the military trouble with the west, they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology. More pop fiction history nonsense you learned from a silly documentary. I watched the same documentaries as you. Might I recommend learning to research and think independently rather than parroting stuff you see on tv? Anyways, I'm sure you'll grow out of this phase eventually as you gain more knowledge and experience. Good luck to you with that.
- dang 7y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. You can't attack others like this on HN, nor keep posting in the flamewar style. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

yorwba 7y ago

> They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) Those products were superior in their respective categories of textiles, beverages and tableware in the sense that wealthy Europeans preferred them over locally made goods. > they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology. Already the Ming dynasty had bought Portuguese cannons and were using them very effectively at first against the invading Jurchens. Of course then the Jurchens got their own cannons, conquered all of China and renamed themselves Manchu, establishing the Qing dynasty. They kept buying Western weapons, ships etc. over the following centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Qing_dynasty#Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Qing_dynasty#T... However, it seems they didn't improve much on the bought technology, or didn't build up high enough production capacity. The British had started experimenting with adding steam engines to their sailboats in time for the First Opium War, which contributed to their defeat of the Chinese fleet (which included bought Western ships). If the Qing had put their energy into building an even larger fleet of steamboats, they might have been able to avoid a repeat of that defeat, but of course I have the benefit of hindsight.

elfexec 7y ago

> You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. Any time before the 1800s? > Yes. It basically tells us, that while China was ahead I thought you said they were never ahead? > the culture had big weaknesses. Every culture has weaknesses. > So big, that they left the world for Europe. What happened to Zheng He? Oh god, no wonder. You learned pop fiction history. What about zheng he? Your comment is as silly as what happened to the US flights to the moon? It's been 50 years since the last moon landing. Why do you ask? Because there is no financial reason for it. The same thing with zheng he. It was a grand naval theatrical performance which didn't pay any dividends. As for europe, you act like "culture" is why europe "explored". Why didn't europe "explore" in 1392 or 1292 or 592 or you get the idea. Didn't europe have culture back then? There was no incentive. It wasn't culture that pushed europe to "explore". It was financial incentive. The collapse of the byzantine empire and the end of the golden horde is why columbus sailed for what? Americas? No. He set sail for the east. > They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) and only wanted to export but never buy anything. A product can be unique and superior. The reason why silk and porcelain were desired was precisely because it was superior to anything in europe. Not only that europe had inferior porcelain knock-offs for hundreds of years. You know how like we have inferior chinese knock-offs today, there were inferior europe knock-offs of chinese products. It's why "fine china" was called "fine china". > They always said, in the arrogance "we don't need anything!". After the military trouble with the west, they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology. More pop fiction history nonsense you learned from a silly documentary. I watched the same documentaries as you. Might I recommend learning to research and think independently rather than parroting stuff you see on tv? Anyways, I'm sure you'll grow out of this phase eventually as you gain more knowledge and experience. Good luck to you with that.

dang 7y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. You can't attack others like this on HN, nor keep posting in the flamewar style. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.