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Seems like this is not necessarily Tesla exclusive and a projector could fool any system based on "classic" 2D vision until they're smart enough to put human li

Seems like this is not necessarily Tesla exclusive and a projector could fool any system based on "classic" 2D vision until they're smart enough to put human like processing power behind those images. Even people can fall for a "Wiley E. Coyote" type gag where they drive into a painting of a tunnel entrance on a wall [0]. Cars (computers in general) are nowhere near smart enough to deal with such tricks. But it does mean that the bar is significantly lowered for tricking cars in self-driving mode and causing crashes or at the very least some serious disturbance. [0] https://www.insideedition.com/headlines/15350-street-artist-painted-a-road-runner-tunnel-on-a-wall-someone-tried-to-drive-through https://www.insideedition.com/headlines/15350-street-artist-...

jiofih 7y ago
The car is actually a lot smarter in that case, since it has radar to help detect obstacles.
- close04 7y ago
  > radar to help detect obstacles >> could fool any system based on "classic" 2D vision I think I was pretty clear about which systems can be fooled. And radar will not help with projected images like speed limit signs, human figures, or lane markers. Nothing from the article (or common sense) suggests any of these issues could be helped by a radar. Worse yet, some of these images can be projected for such a short time that the human driver would have no hint that something is about to go wrong or explanation for it.
  - jiofih 7y ago
    I was not responding to the article, but specifically to your “Cars (computers in general) are nowhere near smart enough to deal with such trick [the Coyote tunnel gag]” - the radar will certainly detect a wall, while a human might still be fooled by the a drawing.
rtkwe 7y ago
There is a solution already and it's LIDAR/RADAR. None of these should fool a LIDAR or combined LIDAR and camera system.
- buran77 7y ago
  "None of these should fool a LIDAR or combined LIDAR and camera system" How would a LIDAR help with the lines on the road? At best it could see the guard rail or another car in its path and break to avoid a crash but this could very well take a car off the side of the road if there's no clear obstacle.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    I had skimmed and saw the fake traffic sign and fake car examples both of which shouldn't fool LIDAR systems. It would have a much harder time with the fake lines situation, it'd rely on looking for curbs or something, maybe some inference based on how other cars are moving.
    - close04 7y ago
      > I had skimmed and saw the fake traffic sign and fake car examples both of which shouldn't fool LIDAR systems There's no RADAR/LIDAR system that would reasonably tell apart real from fake signs or lines (the lines being the real dangerous issue). They come in many shapes and sizes. A fake sign would also fool a human but overall a human driver has many other cues to base a decision on. At the very least someone trying to trick you would have to invest far more into the props used.
      - rtkwe 7y ago
        The fake signs in this example were projected/displayed in/on trees/billboards and would be ignored fairly easy because it would be the image embedded in a a shape that didn't match the shape of a sign. These types of signs shouldn't fool people, you could fool both human [0] and CV with a fake sign on a pole but it shouldn't fool either just projected onto a tree. With LIDAR you can tell if the image of the speed limit is on a speed limit sign or not. [0] Though people would have an additional layer of reasoning about if the speed limit was reasonable for a particular set of road. Just putting up a 90 MPH speed limit on a random residential road even with a convincing sign should get people to do 90 on it. (Granted computers already have databases of posted speed limits they could draw from too)

jiofih 7y ago

The car is actually a lot smarter in that case, since it has radar to help detect obstacles.

close04 7y ago
> radar to help detect obstacles >> could fool any system based on "classic" 2D vision I think I was pretty clear about which systems can be fooled. And radar will not help with projected images like speed limit signs, human figures, or lane markers. Nothing from the article (or common sense) suggests any of these issues could be helped by a radar. Worse yet, some of these images can be projected for such a short time that the human driver would have no hint that something is about to go wrong or explanation for it.
- jiofih 7y ago
  I was not responding to the article, but specifically to your “Cars (computers in general) are nowhere near smart enough to deal with such trick [the Coyote tunnel gag]” - the radar will certainly detect a wall, while a human might still be fooled by the a drawing.

rtkwe 7y ago

There is a solution already and it's LIDAR/RADAR. None of these should fool a LIDAR or combined LIDAR and camera system.

buran77 7y ago
"None of these should fool a LIDAR or combined LIDAR and camera system" How would a LIDAR help with the lines on the road? At best it could see the guard rail or another car in its path and break to avoid a crash but this could very well take a car off the side of the road if there's no clear obstacle.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  I had skimmed and saw the fake traffic sign and fake car examples both of which shouldn't fool LIDAR systems. It would have a much harder time with the fake lines situation, it'd rely on looking for curbs or something, maybe some inference based on how other cars are moving.
  - close04 7y ago
    > I had skimmed and saw the fake traffic sign and fake car examples both of which shouldn't fool LIDAR systems There's no RADAR/LIDAR system that would reasonably tell apart real from fake signs or lines (the lines being the real dangerous issue). They come in many shapes and sizes. A fake sign would also fool a human but overall a human driver has many other cues to base a decision on. At the very least someone trying to trick you would have to invest far more into the props used.
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      The fake signs in this example were projected/displayed in/on trees/billboards and would be ignored fairly easy because it would be the image embedded in a a shape that didn't match the shape of a sign. These types of signs shouldn't fool people, you could fool both human [0] and CV with a fake sign on a pole but it shouldn't fool either just projected onto a tree. With LIDAR you can tell if the image of the speed limit is on a speed limit sign or not. [0] Though people would have an additional layer of reasoning about if the speed limit was reasonable for a particular set of road. Just putting up a 90 MPH speed limit on a random residential road even with a convincing sign should get people to do 90 on it. (Granted computers already have databases of posted speed limits they could draw from too)