13 ms·

Who Deserves This? (2018)

52 points by adgasf 7y ago

Tomte 7y ago
> I don’t claim that we don’t need to keep some people separated from free society. Like people who contract the murders of other other people, in order to keep their criminal empire, with zero remorse or appreciation what they have done? Exactly.
- Matticus_Rex 7y ago
  He wasn't convicted of that, so...
  - bmelton 7y ago
    Nor even charged
- lawn 7y ago
  Like people who are framed? By corrupt agents, who also got sentenced by the way? Yeah, throw away the keys. Why not send him to Guantanamo while we're at it? There are plenty of innocent people there to keep him company.
- programmarchy 7y ago
  That always seemed like a frame job to me. Ross was a good kid from Westlake with utopian ideals who got in over his head, so they had to smear his character for this takedown so the public could stomach it. The FBI also stole 1600 Bitcoins in the process, so it's not like the agents involved didn't have an incentive. [1] They wanted to make an example out of him, and to add insult to injury, they took him out on a bullshit charge so he couldn't become a martyr for his well-meaning ideals of ending prohibition. [1] https://news.bitcoin.com/rogue-silk-road-agent-admits-to-stealing-bitcoins-seized-by-u-s-marshals/ https://news.bitcoin.com/rogue-silk-road-agent-admits-to-ste...
jawns 7y ago
Just in case any of you are wondering who Ross is ... He created the Silk Road, a popular online exchange for illegal drugs, and prosecutors alleged that he paid $730K to try to kill six people. (He was not, however, charged with attempted murder. Instead, he was charged and convicted of money laundering and drug offenses.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht EDIT: I just want to make completely clear that I didn't post this info in an effort to discredit his essay's argument, which is that the U.S. prison system is in need of drastic reform. I agree wholeheartedly with that. I just wanted to give some context, because I didn't know who he was, and the "Who is Ross?" section of the freeross.org site makes it seem like he's an angelic Boy Scout philanthropist sweetheart.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  That's not quite correct. It is true that he was convicted of money laundering and drug offenses. However, during his sentencing hearing, the murder-for-hire which was never discussed or proved in court, was brought in as part of how long to lock him away. That alone should vacate and admonish the judge for letting that scam take place.
- cicada-3301 7y ago
  These 7-year-old allegations relied solely on anonymous chats NEVER proven to have been authored by Ulbricht. It's well known now there were multiple people behind the DPR accounts AND 2 corrupt agents (now in prison) had admin access too. Never proven, never prosecuted and dismissed "with prejudice" by the govt, meaning they can never be used against him again. Ross was NOT accused of selling drugs or laundering money, or hacking computers. Charges based on what others listed on SR (i.e, laundering money conspiracy charge = because some users were cashing out their btc for other currencies. Hacking conspiracy = because some users listed hacking tutorials or software.) Wikiepedia shouldn't be used as a reliable source when it comes to legal cases.
  - berberous 7y ago
    Given that he was never charged with those attempted murders, I’m sympathetic to the argument that it should not have been used against him at sentencing. But practically, it always seemed to me fairly obvious that he did author those messages. Do you not think that’s the case?
oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
He paid off hit men to murder other people. Fuck him.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  Then why was he not prosecuted for that? There wasn't even enough evidence to bring that to the trial.
  - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
    Because there was no need to, the other charges were enough to put him away for life. There's really very little reason to doubt he did it, either.
    - runjake 7y ago
      Educate yourself. The prosecutor "addressed the jury and stated that none of the six contracted murders-for-hire occurred." These charges were dismissed with prejudice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Silk_Road,_arrest_and_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Silk_Road,_arres...
      - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
        I mean, no, they didn't actually occur, that is the good part. That doesn't let Ross off the hook for attempting to make them occur.
        eLLyfiGneg 7y ago
        Luckily, for Ross, none of them actually occurred as they would have made him eligible for the death penalty under the CCE statute.
  - oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
    Great summary of course of events going over his message logs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpMP6Nh3FvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpMP6Nh3FvU Also exposes a lot of the bias of the Free Ross movement (mainly his mom). The evidence is clear as day - no reason to doubt that he did it. The feds didn't need to this specific charge because they got him on everything else.
bluedevil2k 7y ago
I’ve thought the punishment of Ross was extremely too harsh: life in prison without the possibility of parole. I know the government paints this picture of him as a major drug smuggler, but I think we in the tech world are smarter than that and realize creating a platform is different than selling. After all, are EBay and Amazon liable for all the counterfeit things on their page? Should Bezos go to jail? I also think the Silk Road story would be a fascinating 2-season, 20 episode series on Netflix. Read the story linked below for a great 2 hour read. - https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/
- JeremyBanks 7y ago
  > After all, are [...] Amazon liable for all the counterfeit things on their page? Should Bezos go to jail? Yes. Amazon is fucking up the functioning of the overall market, by undercutting legal products with fraudulent fake products, while shielding the criminals from retribution. It's been extremely harmful and Bezos should be punished for it.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    Which store on Amazon is ran by Bezos?
    - jmvoodoo 7y ago
      All of them.
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        Seems like you also think that Mark Zuckerberg runs my FB profile? IMHO that is a very unproductive way of thought. Also (on top of absence of practical correctness) most likely formally incorrect, but I'm not a English native speaker. Definitely would be invalid in my language though.
        homonculus1 7y ago
amriksohata 7y ago
Reading this, it sounds like he is not pleading not guilty, but rather saying whatever has been done but blah blah I don't deserve this. Reading into his thought process feels very dark, I may be reading too much here but there almost seems to be some subtle undertones of vengeance and encouraging (maybe his past friends) to help seek revenge to what happened to him.
SamReidHughes 7y ago
My "favorite" thing about the case was how the feds found him buying a fake id in a "random" customs check. I'll bet you there was some parallel construction going on. FWIW I have a hard time having sympathy for a drug kingpin hacker doing hard time. Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Razele 7y ago
I agree the punishment is to harsh for drug smuggling, but if he did attempt to murder six people, then it's not. He should have his day in court for attempted murder.
- irscott 7y ago
  He had his day and the charge was dismissed and can never be brought back. In the US at least this is a done deal as far as the justice system is concerned.
etchalon 7y ago
The ever-interesting thing about Ulbricht – every thread devolves into a discussion on whether he "paid someone to murder someone else". Every stitch of evidence says he did. Defenders will make two claims: 1. he was never charged – despite the fact the schemes were absolutely a part of the conspiracy charges he was convicted of or 2. the evidence was planted! The first fact being provably untrue and the second being impossible to disprove. Prison is a dark, and horrendous existence. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I would spend a lifetime avoiding it. I believe in rehabilitation and remorse. I don't believe in "throwing away" people who make mistakes. But once you've decided that the death of one person is worth less than the "value" of your business, a business specifically designed to thwart obvious laws for your own profit, I have a hard time finding sympathy for you, beyond the basic sympathy I'd extend anyone who is being forced to live with the consequences of their actions.
rowathray 7y ago
I guess now that the Mueller report was a flop we all go back to hating the FBI?
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
> Imagine the worst torture you can think of that doesn’t leave the victim disabled, something you can’t deny is cruel: burning, flogging — take your pick. If the victims themselves would prefer this torture to imprisonment, the inescapable conclusion is that prison is worse, even more cruel. I, and every prisoner I have asked, would prefer any amount of pain and cruelty, for a limited duration, to the years and decades we’re forced to spend here—spirits crushed, hope abandoned, relegated to irrelevance. People will say they choose all sorts of theoretical punishments that have no chance of happening. In reality, I doubt very many people would actually go through with it if actually given the chance.
- knodi123 7y ago
  Philosophically, it's an interesting idea for discussion. Sentence criminals to a certain amount of pain, and let them choose whether to experience it via decades of low-grade boredom, or hours/minutes/seconds of intense agony. Personally, in an ideal world that is not this one, I think that prison serves the dual purpose of rehabilitation and removal-from-society, and that the "voluntary torture" approach serves neither end. But in our actual world, prison is only sometimes barely-rehabilitative, and I'm not sure how valuable removal from society is on its own. So... interesting discussion, at least.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    Philosophically interesting, but I'm not sure it really serves all the purposes prison has. There are four widely recognized ones: retribution, discouragement of crime, protection of society (via isolation of harmful members), and rehabilitation. A short period of intense suffering, even supposing you could inflict an equivalent amount of "pain units", only addresses retribution and discouragement of crime.
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
      As for protection of society, I don't think Ross Ulbricht would be a threat to society if he were released now. He is in prison mainly to serve as an example to others. There are probably a lot of other people like him in prison. As for rehabilitation, I would think that in most cases it could be better accomplished via a community based program. For example, drug rehab works better in drug treatment facilities than in prison.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

52 points by adgasf 7y ago

> I don’t claim that we don’t need to keep some people separated from free society. Like people who contract the murders of other other people, in order to keep their criminal empire, with zero remorse or appreciation what they have done? Exactly.

Matticus_Rex 7y ago
He wasn't convicted of that, so...
- bmelton 7y ago
  Nor even charged
lawn 7y ago
Like people who are framed? By corrupt agents, who also got sentenced by the way? Yeah, throw away the keys. Why not send him to Guantanamo while we're at it? There are plenty of innocent people there to keep him company.
programmarchy 7y ago
That always seemed like a frame job to me. Ross was a good kid from Westlake with utopian ideals who got in over his head, so they had to smear his character for this takedown so the public could stomach it. The FBI also stole 1600 Bitcoins in the process, so it's not like the agents involved didn't have an incentive. [1] They wanted to make an example out of him, and to add insult to injury, they took him out on a bullshit charge so he couldn't become a martyr for his well-meaning ideals of ending prohibition. [1] https://news.bitcoin.com/rogue-silk-road-agent-admits-to-stealing-bitcoins-seized-by-u-s-marshals/ https://news.bitcoin.com/rogue-silk-road-agent-admits-to-ste...

jawns 7y ago

Just in case any of you are wondering who Ross is ... He created the Silk Road, a popular online exchange for illegal drugs, and prosecutors alleged that he paid $730K to try to kill six people. (He was not, however, charged with attempted murder. Instead, he was charged and convicted of money laundering and drug offenses.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht EDIT: I just want to make completely clear that I didn't post this info in an effort to discredit his essay's argument, which is that the U.S. prison system is in need of drastic reform. I agree wholeheartedly with that. I just wanted to give some context, because I didn't know who he was, and the "Who is Ross?" section of the freeross.org site makes it seem like he's an angelic Boy Scout philanthropist sweetheart.

crankylinuxuser 7y ago
That's not quite correct. It is true that he was convicted of money laundering and drug offenses. However, during his sentencing hearing, the murder-for-hire which was never discussed or proved in court, was brought in as part of how long to lock him away. That alone should vacate and admonish the judge for letting that scam take place.
cicada-3301 7y ago
These 7-year-old allegations relied solely on anonymous chats NEVER proven to have been authored by Ulbricht. It's well known now there were multiple people behind the DPR accounts AND 2 corrupt agents (now in prison) had admin access too. Never proven, never prosecuted and dismissed "with prejudice" by the govt, meaning they can never be used against him again. Ross was NOT accused of selling drugs or laundering money, or hacking computers. Charges based on what others listed on SR (i.e, laundering money conspiracy charge = because some users were cashing out their btc for other currencies. Hacking conspiracy = because some users listed hacking tutorials or software.) Wikiepedia shouldn't be used as a reliable source when it comes to legal cases.
- berberous 7y ago
  Given that he was never charged with those attempted murders, I’m sympathetic to the argument that it should not have been used against him at sentencing. But practically, it always seemed to me fairly obvious that he did author those messages. Do you not think that’s the case?

oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago

He paid off hit men to murder other people. Fuck him.

Miner49er 7y ago
Then why was he not prosecuted for that? There wasn't even enough evidence to bring that to the trial.
- WAHa_06x36 7y ago
  Because there was no need to, the other charges were enough to put him away for life. There's really very little reason to doubt he did it, either.
  - runjake 7y ago
    Educate yourself. The prosecutor "addressed the jury and stated that none of the six contracted murders-for-hire occurred." These charges were dismissed with prejudice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Silk_Road,_arrest_and_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Silk_Road,_arres...
    - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
      I mean, no, they didn't actually occur, that is the good part. That doesn't let Ross off the hook for attempting to make them occur.
      - eLLyfiGneg 7y ago
        Luckily, for Ross, none of them actually occurred as they would have made him eligible for the death penalty under the CCE statute.
- oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
  Great summary of course of events going over his message logs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpMP6Nh3FvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpMP6Nh3FvU Also exposes a lot of the bias of the Free Ross movement (mainly his mom). The evidence is clear as day - no reason to doubt that he did it. The feds didn't need to this specific charge because they got him on everything else.

bluedevil2k 7y ago

I’ve thought the punishment of Ross was extremely too harsh: life in prison without the possibility of parole. I know the government paints this picture of him as a major drug smuggler, but I think we in the tech world are smarter than that and realize creating a platform is different than selling. After all, are EBay and Amazon liable for all the counterfeit things on their page? Should Bezos go to jail? I also think the Silk Road story would be a fascinating 2-season, 20 episode series on Netflix. Read the story linked below for a great 2 hour read. - https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/

JeremyBanks 7y ago
> After all, are [...] Amazon liable for all the counterfeit things on their page? Should Bezos go to jail? Yes. Amazon is fucking up the functioning of the overall market, by undercutting legal products with fraudulent fake products, while shielding the criminals from retribution. It's been extremely harmful and Bezos should be punished for it.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Which store on Amazon is ran by Bezos?
  - jmvoodoo 7y ago
    All of them.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      Seems like you also think that Mark Zuckerberg runs my FB profile? IMHO that is a very unproductive way of thought. Also (on top of absence of practical correctness) most likely formally incorrect, but I'm not a English native speaker. Definitely would be invalid in my language though.
      - homonculus1 7y ago

amriksohata 7y ago

Reading this, it sounds like he is not pleading not guilty, but rather saying whatever has been done but blah blah I don't deserve this. Reading into his thought process feels very dark, I may be reading too much here but there almost seems to be some subtle undertones of vengeance and encouraging (maybe his past friends) to help seek revenge to what happened to him.

SamReidHughes 7y ago

My "favorite" thing about the case was how the feds found him buying a fake id in a "random" customs check. I'll bet you there was some parallel construction going on. FWIW I have a hard time having sympathy for a drug kingpin hacker doing hard time. Mess with the best, die like the rest.

Razele 7y ago

I agree the punishment is to harsh for drug smuggling, but if he did attempt to murder six people, then it's not. He should have his day in court for attempted murder.

irscott 7y ago
He had his day and the charge was dismissed and can never be brought back. In the US at least this is a done deal as far as the justice system is concerned.

etchalon 7y ago

The ever-interesting thing about Ulbricht – every thread devolves into a discussion on whether he "paid someone to murder someone else". Every stitch of evidence says he did. Defenders will make two claims: 1. he was never charged – despite the fact the schemes were absolutely a part of the conspiracy charges he was convicted of or 2. the evidence was planted! The first fact being provably untrue and the second being impossible to disprove. Prison is a dark, and horrendous existence. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I would spend a lifetime avoiding it. I believe in rehabilitation and remorse. I don't believe in "throwing away" people who make mistakes. But once you've decided that the death of one person is worth less than the "value" of your business, a business specifically designed to thwart obvious laws for your own profit, I have a hard time finding sympathy for you, beyond the basic sympathy I'd extend anyone who is being forced to live with the consequences of their actions.

rowathray 7y ago

I guess now that the Mueller report was a flop we all go back to hating the FBI?

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

> Imagine the worst torture you can think of that doesn’t leave the victim disabled, something you can’t deny is cruel: burning, flogging — take your pick. If the victims themselves would prefer this torture to imprisonment, the inescapable conclusion is that prison is worse, even more cruel. I, and every prisoner I have asked, would prefer any amount of pain and cruelty, for a limited duration, to the years and decades we’re forced to spend here—spirits crushed, hope abandoned, relegated to irrelevance. People will say they choose all sorts of theoretical punishments that have no chance of happening. In reality, I doubt very many people would actually go through with it if actually given the chance.

knodi123 7y ago
Philosophically, it's an interesting idea for discussion. Sentence criminals to a certain amount of pain, and let them choose whether to experience it via decades of low-grade boredom, or hours/minutes/seconds of intense agony. Personally, in an ideal world that is not this one, I think that prison serves the dual purpose of rehabilitation and removal-from-society, and that the "voluntary torture" approach serves neither end. But in our actual world, prison is only sometimes barely-rehabilitative, and I'm not sure how valuable removal from society is on its own. So... interesting discussion, at least.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  Philosophically interesting, but I'm not sure it really serves all the purposes prison has. There are four widely recognized ones: retribution, discouragement of crime, protection of society (via isolation of harmful members), and rehabilitation. A short period of intense suffering, even supposing you could inflict an equivalent amount of "pain units", only addresses retribution and discouragement of crime.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
    As for protection of society, I don't think Ross Ulbricht would be a threat to society if he were released now. He is in prison mainly to serve as an example to others. There are probably a lot of other people like him in prison. As for rehabilitation, I would think that in most cases it could be better accomplished via a community based program. For example, drug rehab works better in drug treatment facilities than in prison.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]