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>> And it’s hard to read Republican’s sudden enthusiasm for tree planting as anything other than a cynical effort to dampen growing calls for the sorts of regul

>> And it’s hard to read Republican’s sudden enthusiasm for tree planting as anything other than a cynical effort to dampen growing calls for the sorts of regulations and taxes required to bring about those changes. Rather than going scorched earth on common-ground, why not see it as a stepping-stone, an opportunity to draw the other side toward your way of seeing things... and maybe even suggest more small, achievable steps for the other side to move in your direction rather than pulling out a cudgel?

smacktoward 7y ago
Perhaps because the “other side” has spent thirty years fighting tooth and nail to stop even the most modest attempts to address the problem? When people spend that long telling you what they want, it’s generally safe to believe them.
- thetrumanshow 7y ago
  Probably so, but when someone steps in the direction you want them to go, its not effective to whack them for it. If you want them to continue down your path you say "Well done! But, can you take just one more small step?" The hope is that these steps accumulate into something meaningful. A virtuous upward spiral.
  - martingoodson 7y ago
    There is evidence that performing minor activities like tree planting actually reduces willingness to take meaningful action against climate change. This is called the 'low cost' hypothesis [1]. If you wanted to reduce public pressure against fossil fuels you would instigate something exactly like a tree planting program. [1] https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/ecolec/v166y2019ic2.html https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/ecolec/v166y2019ic2.html
    - grawprog 7y ago
      Treeplanting itself is of mixed usefulness. I've done some treeplanting, sometimes it's done well, native species are used, trees are planted properly in appropriate spots, other times, no care in tree selection is used, and introduced/invasive or just unsuitable trees are planted, trees are planted inmproperly or in locations where they won't grow and a lot of money and time ends up wasted for no benefits.
    - ars 7y ago
      > that performing minor activities Can I assume you are also opposed to straw and plastic bag bans? Unlike tree planting which at least does something, those bans are almost entirely worthless.
      - mikeyouse 7y ago
        Neither of those have anything to do with climate change.
        Charlie_26 7y ago
        Plastic production requires oil
        8bitsrule 7y ago
        Plastic incineration creates CO2.
      - gamblor956 7y ago
        Bans on straws and plastic bags have a direct measurable impact on local marine wildlife and in the reduction of microplastics. Now that Asian countries are introducing bans, we should start seeing slowing microplastic accumulation. Within a decade microplastic accumulation should peak. By then we'll have more efficient means of addressing microplastic pollution. One point not often brought up is that microplastics in the ocean contribute to ocean temperature rise, since the plastics are able to retain (and thus radiate) more thermal energy. This one of the reasons the great garbage patches are hypoxic--warmer water holds less oxygen.
  - mhuffman 7y ago
    > The hope is that these steps accumulate into something meaningful. A virtuous upward spiral. Or, if let's say the other side isn't working in good faith, they could then hold it up as "proof" they have done their part and ride that "effort" for another 30-40 years.
- awb 7y ago
  If you want to build cooperation then praising any progress, no matter how small it might seem, is usually a good idea. Sure there might be more disagreement down the road but any bipartisan action on climate change is better than none.
- bnjms 7y ago
  We want people to feel good about positive actions taken so when we have to pressure them again they have a reason to care and turn about. Any positive movement means they're slipping, realize they're slipping and have to do something to appease critics. But doing too little makes them a hypocrite and opens them to additional criticism. Which this article is an example of. If I'm damned either way I'm going to go to hell doing as I please.
- ars 7y ago
  So what you are saying, is that criticizing them for any progress is more effective?
- planetzero 7y ago
  If you mean the environmentalists and nuclear power, I agree. Nuclear power really is the only serious answer to climate change. It's hard to know if climate change would even be an issue if protesters of the 70s, 80s, and 90s wouldn't have made any investment into nuclear power so difficult.
DigestRay 7y ago
The GOP is a traitorous anti-american fascist criminal enterprise existing only to preserve the shadow corporate oligarchy in USA under their puppet supreme leader who they crown as president. They will feel no shame to use anti-democratic means like gerrymandering, voter suppression or taking help from hostile foreign nations like Russia through which they will hack election systems, manipulate voter rolls and/or disperse voting database information to various data mining companies to gain an advantage via targeted disinformation. Everyone needs to wake the fuck up because GOP is Evil Inc. They are far beyond good faith arguments, in physics terms, GOP arguing in good faith is outside our observable causal universe.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gnome_chomsky 7y ago
Stepping stones would have worked 40 years ago. We are at the precipice now and must take radical action if we are to mitigate the damage that is baked into the current climate model given the carbon ppm levels we're at now.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Bah, humbug. You still have to be nice and compromise, you can't just expect everyone to go along. Frankly, the science isn't settled, it's such terrible rhetoric. As though science settles things that can't actually be measured until they happen. (Ah! Did you see that? Your radicalism made me defensive and elicited my extreme response! I'm not a denier, I just find uncompromising rhetoric deeply dysfunctional)
  - throwlaplace 7y ago
    >You still have to be nice and compromise If the ship is sinking you don't have to be nice and compromise with those bailing water into the ship. You have to tie them up and throw them below deck so they don't impede the bailing. Then afterwards you have up try them for mutiny.
    - dr_dshiv 7y ago
      Climate extremists (not you, but those who take this belief 2-3x further) are a major threat to modern civ. Who else fervently believes that killing off 50% of people on Earth and completely overturning the modern political-economic system is a better alternative than the status quo?
      - gnome_chomsky 7y ago
        You're conflating ecofascism with activists who know that neoliberal tinkering with carbon taxes is a recipe for failure.
  - gnome_chomsky 7y ago
    Cool, it doesn't matter, carbon doesn't care about your rhetorical exercises. We're heading towards an extinction event and once this realization reaches critical mass, it's going to get ugly.
im3w1l 7y ago
Common ground would be building nuclear power plants. Big, beautiful and numerous. Planting trees is feel-good-do-nothing.

smacktoward 7y ago

Perhaps because the “other side” has spent thirty years fighting tooth and nail to stop even the most modest attempts to address the problem? When people spend that long telling you what they want, it’s generally safe to believe them.

thetrumanshow 7y ago
Probably so, but when someone steps in the direction you want them to go, its not effective to whack them for it. If you want them to continue down your path you say "Well done! But, can you take just one more small step?" The hope is that these steps accumulate into something meaningful. A virtuous upward spiral.
- martingoodson 7y ago
  There is evidence that performing minor activities like tree planting actually reduces willingness to take meaningful action against climate change. This is called the 'low cost' hypothesis [1]. If you wanted to reduce public pressure against fossil fuels you would instigate something exactly like a tree planting program. [1] https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/ecolec/v166y2019ic2.html https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/ecolec/v166y2019ic2.html
  - grawprog 7y ago
    Treeplanting itself is of mixed usefulness. I've done some treeplanting, sometimes it's done well, native species are used, trees are planted properly in appropriate spots, other times, no care in tree selection is used, and introduced/invasive or just unsuitable trees are planted, trees are planted inmproperly or in locations where they won't grow and a lot of money and time ends up wasted for no benefits.
  - ars 7y ago
    > that performing minor activities Can I assume you are also opposed to straw and plastic bag bans? Unlike tree planting which at least does something, those bans are almost entirely worthless.
    - mikeyouse 7y ago
      Neither of those have anything to do with climate change.
      - Charlie_26 7y ago
        Plastic production requires oil
        8bitsrule 7y ago
        Plastic incineration creates CO2.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      Bans on straws and plastic bags have a direct measurable impact on local marine wildlife and in the reduction of microplastics. Now that Asian countries are introducing bans, we should start seeing slowing microplastic accumulation. Within a decade microplastic accumulation should peak. By then we'll have more efficient means of addressing microplastic pollution. One point not often brought up is that microplastics in the ocean contribute to ocean temperature rise, since the plastics are able to retain (and thus radiate) more thermal energy. This one of the reasons the great garbage patches are hypoxic--warmer water holds less oxygen.
- mhuffman 7y ago
  > The hope is that these steps accumulate into something meaningful. A virtuous upward spiral. Or, if let's say the other side isn't working in good faith, they could then hold it up as "proof" they have done their part and ride that "effort" for another 30-40 years.
awb 7y ago
If you want to build cooperation then praising any progress, no matter how small it might seem, is usually a good idea. Sure there might be more disagreement down the road but any bipartisan action on climate change is better than none.
bnjms 7y ago
We want people to feel good about positive actions taken so when we have to pressure them again they have a reason to care and turn about. Any positive movement means they're slipping, realize they're slipping and have to do something to appease critics. But doing too little makes them a hypocrite and opens them to additional criticism. Which this article is an example of. If I'm damned either way I'm going to go to hell doing as I please.
ars 7y ago
So what you are saying, is that criticizing them for any progress is more effective?
planetzero 7y ago
If you mean the environmentalists and nuclear power, I agree. Nuclear power really is the only serious answer to climate change. It's hard to know if climate change would even be an issue if protesters of the 70s, 80s, and 90s wouldn't have made any investment into nuclear power so difficult.

DigestRay 7y ago

The GOP is a traitorous anti-american fascist criminal enterprise existing only to preserve the shadow corporate oligarchy in USA under their puppet supreme leader who they crown as president. They will feel no shame to use anti-democratic means like gerrymandering, voter suppression or taking help from hostile foreign nations like Russia through which they will hack election systems, manipulate voter rolls and/or disperse voting database information to various data mining companies to gain an advantage via targeted disinformation. Everyone needs to wake the fuck up because GOP is Evil Inc. They are far beyond good faith arguments, in physics terms, GOP arguing in good faith is outside our observable causal universe.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gnome_chomsky 7y ago

Stepping stones would have worked 40 years ago. We are at the precipice now and must take radical action if we are to mitigate the damage that is baked into the current climate model given the carbon ppm levels we're at now.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Bah, humbug. You still have to be nice and compromise, you can't just expect everyone to go along. Frankly, the science isn't settled, it's such terrible rhetoric. As though science settles things that can't actually be measured until they happen. (Ah! Did you see that? Your radicalism made me defensive and elicited my extreme response! I'm not a denier, I just find uncompromising rhetoric deeply dysfunctional)
- throwlaplace 7y ago
  >You still have to be nice and compromise If the ship is sinking you don't have to be nice and compromise with those bailing water into the ship. You have to tie them up and throw them below deck so they don't impede the bailing. Then afterwards you have up try them for mutiny.
  - dr_dshiv 7y ago
    Climate extremists (not you, but those who take this belief 2-3x further) are a major threat to modern civ. Who else fervently believes that killing off 50% of people on Earth and completely overturning the modern political-economic system is a better alternative than the status quo?
    - gnome_chomsky 7y ago
      You're conflating ecofascism with activists who know that neoliberal tinkering with carbon taxes is a recipe for failure.
- gnome_chomsky 7y ago
  Cool, it doesn't matter, carbon doesn't care about your rhetorical exercises. We're heading towards an extinction event and once this realization reaches critical mass, it's going to get ugly.

im3w1l 7y ago

Common ground would be building nuclear power plants. Big, beautiful and numerous. Planting trees is feel-good-do-nothing.