7 ms·

The Positive Side of Shame

51 points by yarapavan 7y ago

herostratus101 7y ago
People often say that "fat-shaming doesn't work," but Asian Americans fat shame their overweight family members constantly and -- surprise -- are among the least obese demographic groups in America today.
- amylene 7y ago
  Where is the causative indicator? It could be genetics. Or maybe there are confounders - even if it is causative, perhaps it has serious negative impact on mental health.
- baroomba 7y ago
  I've definitely not picked up junk food at the store several times, or ordered something healthier & smaller when dining out, and so on, to avoid feeling shame. I've actually worked to cultivate the feeling in those situations, as it's so damn useful.
- taurath 7y ago
  There's still plenty of obese asian americans around. Obese people self shame constantly. It creates a feedback look that keeps them being obese. It destroys all their self confidence. If fat shaming worked to prevent obesity on a societal level nobody would be fat. Its an issue with a lot of factors.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  Here's a paper that looked at this[0]: > Paradoxically, the use of fat-shaming to induce weight loss is a significant public health issue, as it has been linked to eating and exercise psychopathology. As juvenile obesity increases in African societies, there is a continuing risk that obese school children and adolescents in physical activity settings will become targets of fat-shaming that damage their developing self-image and weight management efficacy. The thesis of this paper is that fat-shaming in physical activity contexts can undermine efforts to stem juvenile obesity, promote lifelong physical activity and redress health inequities. So "fat shaming" not only destroys juvenile's self-esteem, but may actually make them gain weight and struggle to control their weight. If you have any literature that supports "fat shaming" as a successful weight loss strategy, I'd be interested to read it. [0] https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC200074 https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC20007...
GrumpyNl 7y ago
I will let you know tomorrow, will be shamed then . Public sale of property cause of some tax problems.
stared 7y ago
Sure, shame works (otherwise who would care to use it?). But it is a dangerous weapon. When people stop doing something because of shame, it's not that they change their minds. It's because they were (or are afraid of being) humiliated. In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt) to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior. And yes, shame has its place to coerce social rules - the same as (the threat of) using physical (including lethal) force - e.g. by police. But IMHO it should be the last resort, not a go-to method.
- leftyted 7y ago
  Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method, and I expect that's true for most parents. The fact that I was shamed into brushing my teeth, washing my hands, not lying, and generally acting like a responsible human being doesn't mean that "I didn't change my mind". Nor does it mean that my parents perpetrated violence against me and squelched my individuality. When you feel shame it's because you accept external judgements. If you didn't accept those judgements then you wouldn't feel shame, you'd just be angry. Accepting external judgements is healthy and necessary because our self-worth is derived from our perception of how other people view us. Like any tool, shame can be misused. But, as the article lays out, it's a necessary tool. It's also highly preferable to violence. > In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt) to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior. Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence.
  - taurath 7y ago
    I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower. When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality, shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. > Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.
commandlinefan 7y ago
“Mockery is an important social tool for squelching stupidity. I’ve never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I’ve seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked.” — Scott Adams
- Reedx 7y ago
  Indeed, people don't want to see their behavior being mocked in a Dilbert cartoon or do things considered Dilbert-esque. Which has basically become part of our collective consciousness. The impact that cartoon has had on management/office behavior would be hard to overstate, I suspect.
  - ska 7y ago
    I'm not sure about the management part. Lot's of people identify with Dilbert [1], nobody with the PHB. [1] less these days, I suspect, as Adams has undermined his universality
- taurath 7y ago
  > I’ve never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. I feel bad for Scott Adams as it would appear he's never taken part in a conversation which has been based on the assumption of good intentions on both sides. But, having read what Scott Adams writes, and his obsession with utilitarianism and zero sum games, that shouldn't be too surprising.
- skinkestek 7y ago
  Haven't met me then :-) I've changed my views on drug policies thanks to discussing it - mostly politely IIRC - here on HN.
  - GauntletWizard 7y ago
    If you've changed your drug policies thanks to polite discussion here on HN, then you need shaming. You need to be shown the very real, very negative effects of drugs, and you need to understand that the people politely pushing for greater legalization are those who will take advantage of you. I have learned this the hard way. I was drugged by my roommate about two years ago. This is only anecdote, unfortunately, but there's a whole lot of data that supports it. It is embedded in the advice of organizations like RAINN. It's embedded in things like the laws we already have. There's a very real practical tradeoff between allowing people to live life the way they choose to, and having a safety net making it possible to prevent and prosecute those who believe their right to party overrides my right of consent. People who are using drugs for their benefit - Slipping someone a mickey, encouraging unsafe use, lying and stealing while their victims are under the influence - They can be calm, polite, charming. That does not make them right. They have inflicted trauma on others, trauma that manifests as anger. Trauma that is hard to explain because it burns red-hot when skirted near. Calm politeness is a luxury that we do not often have when discussing sensitive topics.
rhacker 7y ago
If someone is being an asshole instead of shaming them, we now shame the shammers. Which makes no sense, because now everyone is a shammer and should be shamed for that, because that's the rule now right?
twic 7y ago
John Carmack (probably) [0]: Left to themselves, most people have a tremendous ability to ignore their flaws, and it hampers their growth. A bit of shame is often a positive motivation. I am ashamed of a lot of code I wrote last year. I have reasons why it is the way it is, some of which are defensible, but some are just "WTF was I thinking?" If you don't have nagging bits of guilt about your recent body of work, it might well be a benefit for someone to point out problems in terms that break through your defenses. [0] https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_million_lines_of_bad_code_variance_explained_20/#comment- https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_milli... 1974419008
rayiner 7y ago
Shame is underused in western society. For example, I'd love to see HOV lane enforcement that just involved cameras capturing the faces of HOV violators and posting them online.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- taurath 7y ago
  The advertising industry more than makes up for the lack of governmental shame in the US. Also I don't think the LGBT or most monitory communities would agree that shame is underused. I'd love to see the HOV idea though.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    As someone else wrote in a different thread: “The shamee must consider themselves subject to the same social norms as the shamer." So the HOV thing would only work on people who thought it was morally or socially wrong to drive in the HOV lane. If you, for example, believe that HOV lanes are simply a handout to already-rich Tesla drivers and just remove a useful lane from the rest of us, then the only reason you don’t drive in them is the risk of a fine if you get caught. These people don’t care if they are publicly called out for breaking a rule because they reject the moral basis of the rule.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
tempsy 7y ago
I think it depends on the mental state of the person being shamed. People who experience childhood trauma (sexual, physical, emotional, etc.) are particularly at risk for developing a chronic, toxic sense of shame that follows them throughout life. If you as the shamer shame someone who is in that position, it would only compound their shame and be extremely unhelpful, since it is something they already feel about themselves. Of course, it's difficult to know whether someone feels toxic shame about themselves as the "shamer", which makes it impossible to know if it would be "helpful". Point is, because it's impossible to know whether the recipient of shame feels "toxic shame" about themselves, I would never purposefully engage in "strategic shaming" as a way to help someone.
AzzieElbab 7y ago
shame was essential concept in some highly entertaining episodes of a popular TV show about kings, dragons, and zombies
- AzzieElbab 7y ago
  Shame on the downvoters. Shame Shame Shame
Pfhreak 7y ago
This seems like a pretty weak argument -- that we've evolved a response to shame and it thus must be considered a useful tool for us. We've also evolved a response to violence, and yet I wouldn't consider violence to be a useful tool in my management toolbelt.
- LordFast 7y ago
  Better start carrying that butterfly to work every day! You know, just to show who the boss is.
brudgers 7y ago
The social norm was unencrypted and trusting. Google's power allows it to force less powerful businesses to operate in ways that are to Google's advantage. Google doesn't shame web owners. Google scares ordinary users. Users have emotions. Websites don't.
pwinnski 7y ago
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me feel like I deserved it.
asfarley 7y ago
I think the next 50-100 years might be a reverse renaissance where humanity discovers the value of heuristics like shame, fear of the unknown, etc, through large-scale automation and measurement. Rather than eliminating these human flaws, we may begin to codify and implement them in automated systems.

51 points by yarapavan 7y ago

People often say that "fat-shaming doesn't work," but Asian Americans fat shame their overweight family members constantly and -- surprise -- are among the least obese demographic groups in America today.

amylene 7y ago
Where is the causative indicator? It could be genetics. Or maybe there are confounders - even if it is causative, perhaps it has serious negative impact on mental health.
baroomba 7y ago
I've definitely not picked up junk food at the store several times, or ordered something healthier & smaller when dining out, and so on, to avoid feeling shame. I've actually worked to cultivate the feeling in those situations, as it's so damn useful.
taurath 7y ago
There's still plenty of obese asian americans around. Obese people self shame constantly. It creates a feedback look that keeps them being obese. It destroys all their self confidence. If fat shaming worked to prevent obesity on a societal level nobody would be fat. Its an issue with a lot of factors.
Someone1234 7y ago
Here's a paper that looked at this[0]: > Paradoxically, the use of fat-shaming to induce weight loss is a significant public health issue, as it has been linked to eating and exercise psychopathology. As juvenile obesity increases in African societies, there is a continuing risk that obese school children and adolescents in physical activity settings will become targets of fat-shaming that damage their developing self-image and weight management efficacy. The thesis of this paper is that fat-shaming in physical activity contexts can undermine efforts to stem juvenile obesity, promote lifelong physical activity and redress health inequities. So "fat shaming" not only destroys juvenile's self-esteem, but may actually make them gain weight and struggle to control their weight. If you have any literature that supports "fat shaming" as a successful weight loss strategy, I'd be interested to read it. [0] https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC200074 https://journals.co.za/content/ajpherd1/22/Issue-41/EJC20007...

GrumpyNl 7y ago

I will let you know tomorrow, will be shamed then . Public sale of property cause of some tax problems.

stared 7y ago

Sure, shame works (otherwise who would care to use it?). But it is a dangerous weapon. When people stop doing something because of shame, it's not that they change their minds. It's because they were (or are afraid of being) humiliated. In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt) to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior. And yes, shame has its place to coerce social rules - the same as (the threat of) using physical (including lethal) force - e.g. by police. But IMHO it should be the last resort, not a go-to method.

leftyted 7y ago
Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method, and I expect that's true for most parents. The fact that I was shamed into brushing my teeth, washing my hands, not lying, and generally acting like a responsible human being doesn't mean that "I didn't change my mind". Nor does it mean that my parents perpetrated violence against me and squelched my individuality. When you feel shame it's because you accept external judgements. If you didn't accept those judgements then you wouldn't feel shame, you'd just be angry. Accepting external judgements is healthy and necessary because our self-worth is derived from our perception of how other people view us. Like any tool, shame can be misused. But, as the article lays out, it's a necessary tool. It's also highly preferable to violence. > In Not-Violent Communication Marshall Rosenberg considers shame (and guilt) to be one of the violent ways to change people's behavior. Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence.
- taurath 7y ago
  I was also shamed by my parents - it was their favorite tool. When it comes to things like brushing your teeth, thats one thing. The stakes there are lot lower. When it comes to who you are or how you choose to express your individuality, shame is absolutely a violent thing. The suicide rate for trans people is as high as it is almost ENTIRELY because of shame - shame from others and society that becomes internalized. LGBT people have had to form whole alternate communities because of shame. For many of us our relationship to shame forms large parts of our personality. > Calling shame "violent" is dismissing actual violence. I agree if you're dealing with the idea of "all" shame, but in a lot of contexts is just as or even more harmful. Being punched is less harmful to a person than feeling like they're rejected by the whole of their community.

commandlinefan 7y ago

“Mockery is an important social tool for squelching stupidity. I’ve never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I’ve seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked.” — Scott Adams

Reedx 7y ago
Indeed, people don't want to see their behavior being mocked in a Dilbert cartoon or do things considered Dilbert-esque. Which has basically become part of our collective consciousness. The impact that cartoon has had on management/office behavior would be hard to overstate, I suspect.
- ska 7y ago
  I'm not sure about the management part. Lot's of people identify with Dilbert [1], nobody with the PHB. [1] less these days, I suspect, as Adams has undermined his universality
taurath 7y ago
> I’ve never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. I feel bad for Scott Adams as it would appear he's never taken part in a conversation which has been based on the assumption of good intentions on both sides. But, having read what Scott Adams writes, and his obsession with utilitarianism and zero sum games, that shouldn't be too surprising.
skinkestek 7y ago
Haven't met me then :-) I've changed my views on drug policies thanks to discussing it - mostly politely IIRC - here on HN.
- GauntletWizard 7y ago
  If you've changed your drug policies thanks to polite discussion here on HN, then you need shaming. You need to be shown the very real, very negative effects of drugs, and you need to understand that the people politely pushing for greater legalization are those who will take advantage of you. I have learned this the hard way. I was drugged by my roommate about two years ago. This is only anecdote, unfortunately, but there's a whole lot of data that supports it. It is embedded in the advice of organizations like RAINN. It's embedded in things like the laws we already have. There's a very real practical tradeoff between allowing people to live life the way they choose to, and having a safety net making it possible to prevent and prosecute those who believe their right to party overrides my right of consent. People who are using drugs for their benefit - Slipping someone a mickey, encouraging unsafe use, lying and stealing while their victims are under the influence - They can be calm, polite, charming. That does not make them right. They have inflicted trauma on others, trauma that manifests as anger. Trauma that is hard to explain because it burns red-hot when skirted near. Calm politeness is a luxury that we do not often have when discussing sensitive topics.

rhacker 7y ago

If someone is being an asshole instead of shaming them, we now shame the shammers. Which makes no sense, because now everyone is a shammer and should be shamed for that, because that's the rule now right?

twic 7y ago

John Carmack (probably) [0]: Left to themselves, most people have a tremendous ability to ignore their flaws, and it hampers their growth. A bit of shame is often a positive motivation. I am ashamed of a lot of code I wrote last year. I have reasons why it is the way it is, some of which are defensible, but some are just "WTF was I thinking?" If you don't have nagging bits of guilt about your recent body of work, it might well be a benefit for someone to point out problems in terms that break through your defenses. [0] https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_million_lines_of_bad_code_variance_explained_20/#comment- https://disqus.com/home/discussion/varianceexplained/a_milli... 1974419008

rayiner 7y ago

Shame is underused in western society. For example, I'd love to see HOV lane enforcement that just involved cameras capturing the faces of HOV violators and posting them online.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
taurath 7y ago
The advertising industry more than makes up for the lack of governmental shame in the US. Also I don't think the LGBT or most monitory communities would agree that shame is underused. I'd love to see the HOV idea though.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  As someone else wrote in a different thread: “The shamee must consider themselves subject to the same social norms as the shamer." So the HOV thing would only work on people who thought it was morally or socially wrong to drive in the HOV lane. If you, for example, believe that HOV lanes are simply a handout to already-rich Tesla drivers and just remove a useful lane from the rest of us, then the only reason you don’t drive in them is the risk of a fine if you get caught. These people don’t care if they are publicly called out for breaking a rule because they reject the moral basis of the rule.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

tempsy 7y ago

I think it depends on the mental state of the person being shamed. People who experience childhood trauma (sexual, physical, emotional, etc.) are particularly at risk for developing a chronic, toxic sense of shame that follows them throughout life. If you as the shamer shame someone who is in that position, it would only compound their shame and be extremely unhelpful, since it is something they already feel about themselves. Of course, it's difficult to know whether someone feels toxic shame about themselves as the "shamer", which makes it impossible to know if it would be "helpful". Point is, because it's impossible to know whether the recipient of shame feels "toxic shame" about themselves, I would never purposefully engage in "strategic shaming" as a way to help someone.

AzzieElbab 7y ago

shame was essential concept in some highly entertaining episodes of a popular TV show about kings, dragons, and zombies

AzzieElbab 7y ago
Shame on the downvoters. Shame Shame Shame

Pfhreak 7y ago

This seems like a pretty weak argument -- that we've evolved a response to shame and it thus must be considered a useful tool for us. We've also evolved a response to violence, and yet I wouldn't consider violence to be a useful tool in my management toolbelt.

LordFast 7y ago
Better start carrying that butterfly to work every day! You know, just to show who the boss is.

brudgers 7y ago

The social norm was unencrypted and trusting. Google's power allows it to force less powerful businesses to operate in ways that are to Google's advantage. Google doesn't shame web owners. Google scares ordinary users. Users have emotions. Websites don't.

pwinnski 7y ago

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me feel like I deserved it.

asfarley 7y ago

I think the next 50-100 years might be a reverse renaissance where humanity discovers the value of heuristics like shame, fear of the unknown, etc, through large-scale automation and measurement. Rather than eliminating these human flaws, we may begin to codify and implement them in automated systems.