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> Bullshit It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first pl

> Bullshit It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around. Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging. "... I have done well. The [local] people are very civil, but I think the grandees hate us, as they must after what we did the Palace. You can scarcely imagine the beauty and magnificence of the places we burnt. It made one's heart sore to burn them; in fact, these places were so large, and we were so pressed for time, that we could not plunder them carefully. Quantities of gold ornaments were burnt, considered as brass. It was wretchedly demoralising work for an army. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace Now that the roles are reversed, it's the chinese that are in awe of us. It's why they send so many students, merchants, etc to the US. For a few hundreds years, it was europeans who were as eager to go to china as chinese are now eager to get to the West. > Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". Yeah, the continuous 5000 years is really a stretch. If they have 5000 years, then might as well say europe has 5000 years or more. > If you can really talk about a "continuous civilization" for 5000, 3500 or even 2000 years is doubtful. Even 1000 is doubtful as the mongols conquered china for a while there. > I am skeptical about the "Chinese Century" We are 2 decades in and nowhere close to a "Chinese Century". This century will most likely become a multipolar century.

bra4you 7y ago
> It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. Well, this was after Rome, and while after the middle ages, still before the industrial revolution. > It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around. The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. "Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging." Why should they? Even if they are writings about "superior culture" from that time, we had Roman writers write too about "superior Germanic culture" (bellum germanicum). By the way, do you know why the Opium war happened? Besides having the inferior technology on the Chinese side? Do you know what the reasons was? It should be a warning to China today.
- elfexec 7y ago
  > Well, this was after Rome, and while after the middle ages, still before the industrial revolution. I don't know what you are trying to say here. > The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. No. It says more about Europe than China. It shows that china had what europe needed/wanted/etc. Also, europe wasn't "exploring" at first. They were seeking a path to china/india/etc after their overland access to china ended with the turkish conquest of constantinople and the russian overthrow of the golden horde. It isn't an accident that europe started "exploring" soon after their trade route to china was cut. > Why should they? Ask them. All I said was that they were. You claimed they weren't and I just wanted to correct you. I'm not saying they should've have been or not. I'm just saying they were. > we had Roman writers write too about "superior Germanic culture" (bellum germanicum). And? I'm trying to make sense of your response so far and I can't. > By the way, do you know why the Opium war happened? Besides having the inferior technology on the Chinese side? Do you know what the reasons was? Yes. China has superior products that europe desired and ran a deficit... > It should be a warning to China today. Not quite. Different type of trade system and different environment. The deficit back then aren't the same as it is today. The chinese didn't use the trade deficit to buy british debt/treasuries/etc. As strange as it sounds, but it's china that's really running a deficit and it should be a warning to us. It's naive to think we are in the same situation as in the early 1800s. We are not. The roles are reversed. It's china who is in awe of the west. It's china who wants western goods. It's china who wants to come to the west. It's china that's hungry and ambitious. It's china sending people all over the west to trade, learn, etc.
  - bra4you 7y ago
    "I don't know what you are trying to say here." You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. But I mentioned this time frame myself and it was the only time. >> The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. > No. It says more about Europe than China. Yes. It basically tells us, that while China was ahead, the culture had big weaknesses. So big, that they left the world for Europe. What happened to Zheng He? "Yes. China has superior products that europe desired and ran a deficit..." You are right with the deficit. They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) and only wanted to export but never buy anything. Not so different from today. They always said, in the arrogance "we don't need anything!". After the military trouble with the west, they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology.

bra4you 7y ago

> It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. Well, this was after Rome, and while after the middle ages, still before the industrial revolution. > It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around. The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. "Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging." Why should they? Even if they are writings about "superior culture" from that time, we had Roman writers write too about "superior Germanic culture" (bellum germanicum). By the way, do you know why the Opium war happened? Besides having the inferior technology on the Chinese side? Do you know what the reasons was? It should be a warning to China today.

elfexec 7y ago
> Well, this was after Rome, and while after the middle ages, still before the industrial revolution. I don't know what you are trying to say here. > The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. No. It says more about Europe than China. It shows that china had what europe needed/wanted/etc. Also, europe wasn't "exploring" at first. They were seeking a path to china/india/etc after their overland access to china ended with the turkish conquest of constantinople and the russian overthrow of the golden horde. It isn't an accident that europe started "exploring" soon after their trade route to china was cut. > Why should they? Ask them. All I said was that they were. You claimed they weren't and I just wanted to correct you. I'm not saying they should've have been or not. I'm just saying they were. > we had Roman writers write too about "superior Germanic culture" (bellum germanicum). And? I'm trying to make sense of your response so far and I can't. > By the way, do you know why the Opium war happened? Besides having the inferior technology on the Chinese side? Do you know what the reasons was? Yes. China has superior products that europe desired and ran a deficit... > It should be a warning to China today. Not quite. Different type of trade system and different environment. The deficit back then aren't the same as it is today. The chinese didn't use the trade deficit to buy british debt/treasuries/etc. As strange as it sounds, but it's china that's really running a deficit and it should be a warning to us. It's naive to think we are in the same situation as in the early 1800s. We are not. The roles are reversed. It's china who is in awe of the west. It's china who wants western goods. It's china who wants to come to the west. It's china that's hungry and ambitious. It's china sending people all over the west to trade, learn, etc.
- bra4you 7y ago
  "I don't know what you are trying to say here." You pic a time frame, were China was indeed ahead. But I mentioned this time frame myself and it was the only time. >> The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe. > No. It says more about Europe than China. Yes. It basically tells us, that while China was ahead, the culture had big weaknesses. So big, that they left the world for Europe. What happened to Zheng He? "Yes. China has superior products that europe desired and ran a deficit..." You are right with the deficit. They did not have superior products, they had unique products (silk, tea, porcelain) and only wanted to export but never buy anything. Not so different from today. They always said, in the arrogance "we don't need anything!". After the military trouble with the west, they realized there was something they should have bought. Technology.