6 ms·

Always more people, always more asphalt, always more buildings. When will this stop.

tsukurimashou 7y ago
When people start killing each other in big crowded places? I've been living near or in big cities for many years, communing is impossible, in some cities it is completely full on the road, on public transportation. People become more and more aggressive on the road because they lose their mind spending so much time just sitting there and waiting for other cars to move. I think it is a shame that so few companies do full remote work, especially in IT. It could really change things.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
philbarr 7y ago
When we decide that we don't want perpetual growth. So - not any time soon.
- pmlnr 7y ago
  We'll see about that. There's a growing mass of quiet people who slowly started to keep their things longer, try to repair (either themselves or by someone) them again. There are movements around it - see Repair Café and Restart Party. But indeed, it could do with some push from the loud ones.
  - Lio 7y ago
    When worldwide we decide not to have more than 2 children per couple or replace our pets then we'll see the search for growth slow down. Whilst the world population keeps growing and we keep moving forwards towards hire world average incomes we'll still be looking for growth.
    - paganel 7y ago
      We're doing our part here in Eastern Europe (the fewer children thing, I mean) and everyone speaks about it like the next apocalypse. This is such an article from yesterday's Financial Times [1] [1] https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993b04 https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993... (in here http://archive.ph/https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993b04 http://archive.ph/https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-1... for those who don't have access)
    - wackro 7y ago
      Agent Smith's monologue from The Matrix comes to mind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp2adrUaiyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp2adrUaiyI) Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm afraid that shifts towards sustainability in developed parts of the world can only lead to less growth _in those parts of the world_. There will always be a buyer in a less developed country that will keep a less sustainable economy going. And the less-developed world is growing. Efforts towards sustainability are neccessary for reasons too obvious to mention, but ongoing growth does seems inevitable.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
        Why so serious? These visions can be had with more fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHMDrhBREXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHMDrhBREXU
  - r_singh 7y ago
    Unfortunately in developing nations like India, a reverse trend has just begun growing exponentially[1] as the youth becomes victim to consumerism. The older generation would use day to day items (pots, pans, glasses, radios, TV sets, vehicles, even clothes) for what would feel like an eternity, repair till they wanted a well deserved upgrade and even then would either sell or donate the same. Now I hear young people boast about how they upgrade their iPhones every year (or their cars every 3 years) and don't even sell the previous one because there's no point in getting $300 for it :( While not everyone can afford to do that, but it does make it aspirational (in the minds of those vulnerable to herd mentality) to be a wasteful consumer h*e, smh. [1] This mass cultural and spending to saving ratio shift is in the best interest of the government, who wants our economy to grow—at any cost.
huffmsa 7y ago
Well, depending on how badly this Wuhan thing goes, we could have a few years of no growth
dmos62 7y ago
I'm half-heartedly rooting for an early semi-apocalypse. Early, because the later it comes the worse it will be. Might come off as misathropic, but if one thinks that we're doomed by uncontrollable inertia (which I'm not entirely convinced about, but it's a worthwhile scenario to explore), this is the best case scenario. In that vein: hurray for Brexit; Trump 2020; 2008-scale economic bubbles are improbable; go radical fascism; say no to solidarity; we don't have to rethink transportation; late postmodernism is going great!
- Quarrelsome 7y ago
  Beware the draw of apocalypse fantasy for it speaks of humans own personal struggle to accept the outcome of their own death. It provides the warm thought that life after theirs has less merit and potential which renders their death a blessing as opposed to a curse. It is arguably the reason why the older you get the more it tempts.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    This idea intrigues me, but I'm not sure I follow all the way. Why is the death of one who has more merit a blessing?
    - Quarrelsome 7y ago
      the idea is that as you get old you start to seek validation that its "okay to die" because you haven't otherwise made peace with that part of your transaction of life. Part of that bleeds out as apocalypse fantasy. Its okay that I'm going to die because this world is no longer worth living in and I sympathise with the poor wretches that have to face the future that I do not. Its a coping mechanism for dealing with death and you'll see many people as they age fall into it.
      - wackro 7y ago
        I'm curious how you came to learn this. Doesn't seem like everyday knowledge.
ak39 7y ago
Almost all of the buildings in a city like London would be associated with administrative occupations. People pushing paper or buttons. Do we really need to meet at an open plan office to complete our daily tasks? Can we please start getting going the real value "gig" economy in the form of remote work for 90% of these jobs in the cities. Imagine working for a company in London but living outside ring M25! It will take a paradigm shift to make location irrelevant.
objclxt 7y ago
> Always more people, always more asphalt, always more buildings London's population today (8.7 million) is only marginally more than it was in 1939 (8.6 million). For much of the 20th century the population decreased - there's no reason that can't happen again, especially if people migrate out of London for work.
- HatchedLake721 7y ago
  You’re forgetting hundreds of thousands of daily commuters
m-i-l 7y ago
I can kind-of see why some people think that more and more people coming to more and more jobs in bigger and bigger buildings is unsettling. But I think it is better than the opposite, which many inside London's prosperity bubble often seem to forget - remember the decay and poverty in some other parts of England, communities hollowed out by declining industry and lack of jobs, near derelict streets of houses up for sale at £1 each to try and attract people back, people turning to crime and drugs and yearning to return to some largely mythical past which the populist leaders have promised them.
- keiferski 7y ago
  The first thing you mentioned is the cause of the second.
Quarrelsome 7y ago
it wont and why should it? We might as well mourn the loss of our farming roots whose loss makes Shakespearean dialog impenetrable. Or our loss of maritime roots, I don't know how to load a cannon in a storm or splice a main brace. Is the "progress" that took those elements from me as distrustful of that of concrete and buildings? In terms of London though up is good, its way too much of a sprawl and would benefit from greater density.

When people start killing each other in big crowded places? I've been living near or in big cities for many years, communing is impossible, in some cities it is completely full on the road, on public transportation. People become more and more aggressive on the road because they lose their mind spending so much time just sitting there and waiting for other cars to move. I think it is a shame that so few companies do full remote work, especially in IT. It could really change things.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

philbarr 7y ago

When we decide that we don't want perpetual growth. So - not any time soon.

pmlnr 7y ago
We'll see about that. There's a growing mass of quiet people who slowly started to keep their things longer, try to repair (either themselves or by someone) them again. There are movements around it - see Repair Café and Restart Party. But indeed, it could do with some push from the loud ones.
- Lio 7y ago
  When worldwide we decide not to have more than 2 children per couple or replace our pets then we'll see the search for growth slow down. Whilst the world population keeps growing and we keep moving forwards towards hire world average incomes we'll still be looking for growth.
  - paganel 7y ago
    We're doing our part here in Eastern Europe (the fewer children thing, I mean) and everyone speaks about it like the next apocalypse. This is such an article from yesterday's Financial Times [1] [1] https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993b04 https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993... (in here http://archive.ph/https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-11ea-ac3c-f68c10993b04 http://archive.ph/https://www.ft.com/content/c5d3e0ae-36eb-1... for those who don't have access)
  - wackro 7y ago
    Agent Smith's monologue from The Matrix comes to mind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp2adrUaiyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp2adrUaiyI) Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm afraid that shifts towards sustainability in developed parts of the world can only lead to less growth _in those parts of the world_. There will always be a buyer in a less developed country that will keep a less sustainable economy going. And the less-developed world is growing. Efforts towards sustainability are neccessary for reasons too obvious to mention, but ongoing growth does seems inevitable.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
      Why so serious? These visions can be had with more fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHMDrhBREXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHMDrhBREXU
- r_singh 7y ago
  Unfortunately in developing nations like India, a reverse trend has just begun growing exponentially[1] as the youth becomes victim to consumerism. The older generation would use day to day items (pots, pans, glasses, radios, TV sets, vehicles, even clothes) for what would feel like an eternity, repair till they wanted a well deserved upgrade and even then would either sell or donate the same. Now I hear young people boast about how they upgrade their iPhones every year (or their cars every 3 years) and don't even sell the previous one because there's no point in getting $300 for it :( While not everyone can afford to do that, but it does make it aspirational (in the minds of those vulnerable to herd mentality) to be a wasteful consumer h*e, smh. [1] This mass cultural and spending to saving ratio shift is in the best interest of the government, who wants our economy to grow—at any cost.

huffmsa 7y ago

Well, depending on how badly this Wuhan thing goes, we could have a few years of no growth

dmos62 7y ago

I'm half-heartedly rooting for an early semi-apocalypse. Early, because the later it comes the worse it will be. Might come off as misathropic, but if one thinks that we're doomed by uncontrollable inertia (which I'm not entirely convinced about, but it's a worthwhile scenario to explore), this is the best case scenario. In that vein: hurray for Brexit; Trump 2020; 2008-scale economic bubbles are improbable; go radical fascism; say no to solidarity; we don't have to rethink transportation; late postmodernism is going great!

Quarrelsome 7y ago
Beware the draw of apocalypse fantasy for it speaks of humans own personal struggle to accept the outcome of their own death. It provides the warm thought that life after theirs has less merit and potential which renders their death a blessing as opposed to a curse. It is arguably the reason why the older you get the more it tempts.
- dmos62 7y ago
  This idea intrigues me, but I'm not sure I follow all the way. Why is the death of one who has more merit a blessing?
  - Quarrelsome 7y ago
    the idea is that as you get old you start to seek validation that its "okay to die" because you haven't otherwise made peace with that part of your transaction of life. Part of that bleeds out as apocalypse fantasy. Its okay that I'm going to die because this world is no longer worth living in and I sympathise with the poor wretches that have to face the future that I do not. Its a coping mechanism for dealing with death and you'll see many people as they age fall into it.
    - wackro 7y ago
      I'm curious how you came to learn this. Doesn't seem like everyday knowledge.

ak39 7y ago

Almost all of the buildings in a city like London would be associated with administrative occupations. People pushing paper or buttons. Do we really need to meet at an open plan office to complete our daily tasks? Can we please start getting going the real value "gig" economy in the form of remote work for 90% of these jobs in the cities. Imagine working for a company in London but living outside ring M25! It will take a paradigm shift to make location irrelevant.

objclxt 7y ago

> Always more people, always more asphalt, always more buildings London's population today (8.7 million) is only marginally more than it was in 1939 (8.6 million). For much of the 20th century the population decreased - there's no reason that can't happen again, especially if people migrate out of London for work.

HatchedLake721 7y ago
You’re forgetting hundreds of thousands of daily commuters

m-i-l 7y ago

I can kind-of see why some people think that more and more people coming to more and more jobs in bigger and bigger buildings is unsettling. But I think it is better than the opposite, which many inside London's prosperity bubble often seem to forget - remember the decay and poverty in some other parts of England, communities hollowed out by declining industry and lack of jobs, near derelict streets of houses up for sale at £1 each to try and attract people back, people turning to crime and drugs and yearning to return to some largely mythical past which the populist leaders have promised them.

keiferski 7y ago
The first thing you mentioned is the cause of the second.

Quarrelsome 7y ago

it wont and why should it? We might as well mourn the loss of our farming roots whose loss makes Shakespearean dialog impenetrable. Or our loss of maritime roots, I don't know how to load a cannon in a storm or splice a main brace. Is the "progress" that took those elements from me as distrustful of that of concrete and buildings? In terms of London though up is good, its way too much of a sprawl and would benefit from greater density.