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I am not quite sure I understand your point. Renewable electricity has the potential to be the most resilient form of energy we have ever had. You can already g

I am not quite sure I understand your point. Renewable electricity has the potential to be the most resilient form of energy we have ever had. You can already generate enough electricity for a typical home by putting solar panels on the roof. The main issue is storage but that is mostly an issue of cost not technology. For about 10-15k you can get enough storage to get you through a multi-day outage. And for double that you could probably go off-grid entirely.

alasdair_ 7y ago
> You can already generate enough electricity for a typical home by putting solar panels on the roof. I looked at doing this recently in the Seattle area. There just isn't enough sunlight to get a payback within the life of a roof (25 years or so). In addition, electricity in the area is mostly from hydro, so it's both clean and cheap.
- markvdb 7y ago
  Seattle is below Paris in latitude. Plenty of sunlight. That is definitely not the problem in terms of energy production. You have a point about the longevity of roofing materials though. You might want to use longer lived/higher quality roofing materials next time your have your roof renovated, and combine with solar then. Almost anything but asphalt shingles should do: epdm rubber, metal, tiles, slate, ...
  - hinkley 7y ago
    > Plenty of sunlight Have you been to Seattle? They don’t have Alaska levels of Seasonal Affective Disorder, but it’s pretty bad. Mountains on both sides shave a little time off sunrise and sunset, and partially cloudy is every day. People basically ignore astronomical events because they won’t be able to see them anyway, although we did luck out on the last solar and lunar eclipses. They have a special term for “overcast with a few moments of sun”: they’re called, “sun breaks”. Sun breaks. A break from clouds that lasts moments. Just a break, then back to work. The only time the sun comes out reliably in the winter is when the wind shifts to the north and an arctic blast comes through. If it looks sunny outside, put on your heavy coat.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >Seattle is below Paris in latitude. Plenty of sunlight. That is definitely not the problem in terms of energy production. Tesla has a pretty detailed solar power estimator that uses historical daily sunlight levels at a fine-grained level. When I used it, the time to pay off my costs was close to 25 years, and that involved a lot of assumptions about future energy prices.
hinkley 7y ago
Not a word of this covers winter storm conditions.
makomk 7y ago
Rooftop solar doesn't work in winter in climates cold enough that people have heating rather than air conditioning. Like, at all. Not only is the peak heating demand in places like Scotland after dark when solar outputs zero watts every time, the winter capacity factor is so low that there isn't enough power produced to even be worth storing.
- qqqwerty 7y ago
  I am well aware of the limitations, was merely pointing out that renewables could greatly improve the status quo when it comes to resiliency for a large portion of the population. And the extreme latitudes can still benefit from solar in the summer. It mostly just comes down to cost/benefit tradeoffs. It seems like the parent comment was suggesting that natural gas was a necessity. I whole heartedly disagree. For winter months in extreme latitudes, other forms of renewables (hydro, geothermal, wind, biomass) should be sufficient.
jakehop 7y ago
The projected battery production in 2080 will only cover about 0,01% of Europe’s electricity demand. Batteries are not scalable and hydroelectric dams have their own geographic requirements which can’t be met in flat countries like The Netherlands or Denmark.
- hinkley 7y ago
  The PNW has been breaching or modifying dams for decades so that we all can have Pacific salmon.
- ben_w 7y ago
  That’s a strange projection. Given that you only need to store energy for about a day[0] and that the batteries last at least three years when you use them like this, world battery production is already 1% of the storage requirements for worldwide 100% renewable. One forecast I’ve seen estimates that battery production will go up by a factor of four by by 2028. [0] longer periods with no wind and no sun are dealt with more cost-efficiently with long distance power lines than with storage.

alasdair_ 7y ago

> You can already generate enough electricity for a typical home by putting solar panels on the roof. I looked at doing this recently in the Seattle area. There just isn't enough sunlight to get a payback within the life of a roof (25 years or so). In addition, electricity in the area is mostly from hydro, so it's both clean and cheap.

markvdb 7y ago
Seattle is below Paris in latitude. Plenty of sunlight. That is definitely not the problem in terms of energy production. You have a point about the longevity of roofing materials though. You might want to use longer lived/higher quality roofing materials next time your have your roof renovated, and combine with solar then. Almost anything but asphalt shingles should do: epdm rubber, metal, tiles, slate, ...
- hinkley 7y ago
  > Plenty of sunlight Have you been to Seattle? They don’t have Alaska levels of Seasonal Affective Disorder, but it’s pretty bad. Mountains on both sides shave a little time off sunrise and sunset, and partially cloudy is every day. People basically ignore astronomical events because they won’t be able to see them anyway, although we did luck out on the last solar and lunar eclipses. They have a special term for “overcast with a few moments of sun”: they’re called, “sun breaks”. Sun breaks. A break from clouds that lasts moments. Just a break, then back to work. The only time the sun comes out reliably in the winter is when the wind shifts to the north and an arctic blast comes through. If it looks sunny outside, put on your heavy coat.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >Seattle is below Paris in latitude. Plenty of sunlight. That is definitely not the problem in terms of energy production. Tesla has a pretty detailed solar power estimator that uses historical daily sunlight levels at a fine-grained level. When I used it, the time to pay off my costs was close to 25 years, and that involved a lot of assumptions about future energy prices.

hinkley 7y ago

Not a word of this covers winter storm conditions.

makomk 7y ago

Rooftop solar doesn't work in winter in climates cold enough that people have heating rather than air conditioning. Like, at all. Not only is the peak heating demand in places like Scotland after dark when solar outputs zero watts every time, the winter capacity factor is so low that there isn't enough power produced to even be worth storing.

qqqwerty 7y ago
I am well aware of the limitations, was merely pointing out that renewables could greatly improve the status quo when it comes to resiliency for a large portion of the population. And the extreme latitudes can still benefit from solar in the summer. It mostly just comes down to cost/benefit tradeoffs. It seems like the parent comment was suggesting that natural gas was a necessity. I whole heartedly disagree. For winter months in extreme latitudes, other forms of renewables (hydro, geothermal, wind, biomass) should be sufficient.

jakehop 7y ago

The projected battery production in 2080 will only cover about 0,01% of Europe’s electricity demand. Batteries are not scalable and hydroelectric dams have their own geographic requirements which can’t be met in flat countries like The Netherlands or Denmark.

hinkley 7y ago
The PNW has been breaching or modifying dams for decades so that we all can have Pacific salmon.
ben_w 7y ago
That’s a strange projection. Given that you only need to store energy for about a day[0] and that the batteries last at least three years when you use them like this, world battery production is already 1% of the storage requirements for worldwide 100% renewable. One forecast I’ve seen estimates that battery production will go up by a factor of four by by 2028. [0] longer periods with no wind and no sun are dealt with more cost-efficiently with long distance power lines than with storage.