6 ms·

One more time, what mobile phone owners need is an intermediary layer in the mobile OS where they can either manually or programmatically (via e.g. a random num

One more time, what mobile phone owners need is an intermediary layer in the mobile OS where they can either manually or programmatically (via e.g. a random number generator) lie to higher-level application layers about the phone's data. It's not enough to just turn off permission to access this data (because then the apps will often just refuse to work); it's essential to be able to lie to these apps in a way that they cannot tell the data is fake. This is a perfect opportunity to build weaponized AI that acts on behalf of users against adtech.

anon_d 7y ago
This is an amazing idea.
- zachthewf 7y ago
  I totally agree. Beyond the obvious privacy gains (which I am very much here for) I'd love to be able to take on different virtual personas within some of these apps just to understand the media landscape of people other than myself. It's always a bit of a trip when to see how the web experience changes when I borrow my girlfriend's laptop, and she's pretty similar to me in the great scheme of things.
el_dev_hell 7y ago
I'm not an app developer. Would this be technically doable on Android? Isn't there already support for running certain apps in a sandbox/container?
- Bnshsysjab 7y ago
  I _think_ cyanogenmod exposes some of this functionality. But as soon as it’s implemented, snoopy apps will just raise the bar further (sms verification, face verification, ‘add this contact to your phone book’, etc)
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    Yep. It's going to be an arms race. So be it. Our AI vs. adtech AI.
    - other_herbert 7y ago
      It may just be that once this exists then you end up in the "software engineer who uses hn " bucket and will just see adds for ssds and processors and coding conferences... A segment that is really hard to identify may turn into a group that is generally easy to identify...
      - pferde 7y ago
        That's good, that's how we know it works. From there, it can spread to family members, friends, etc.
    - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
      Please don’t. I can’t beat google captchas as it is.
  - loa_in_ 7y ago
    They can verify SMS all they want but they'll sell my location data consisting only of my random floats. I don't mind legitimate uses, like verifying you're a human or a real user for that matter.
- Avamander 7y ago
  It has been done by XPrivacy and XPrivacyLua.
nickhalfasleep 7y ago
Or an app that provides a link to a remotely hosted desktop or mobile environment to surf / run apps from.
karlding 7y ago
> One more time, what mobile phone owners need is an intermediary layer in the mobile OS where they can either manually or programmatically (via e.g. a random number generator) lie to higher-level application layers about the phone's data. On Android, if you install Xposed, there's XPrivacy [0], which essentially had this premise. Unfortunately, it only supports versions 4.0.3-5.1.1 (and is no longer maintained). I haven't been following the rooting community for a while, so someone can probably correct me if there's a better alternative now, but I believe the replacement is XPrivacyLua [1]. [0] https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/xprivacylua-xposed-module-privacy/ https://www.xda-developers.com/xprivacylua-xposed-module-pri...
- Avamander 7y ago
  You can use XPrivacyLua on later Androids: https://forum.xda-developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6-0-android-privacy-manager-t3730663 https://forum.xda-developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6...
- NegativeShape 7y ago
  Many applications force-stop when you use Xprivacy. Even worse, applications like instagram refuses to login on a phone with xprivacy installed.
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    The fact that this is possible is a symptom of the wider problem - the OS should ensure that it's impossible for the other app to know if Xprivacy is running or installed. Instagram should be running in a sandbox that gets truth only if the user actually wishes to give it the truth, and if they want to demand unnecessary info from the user (e.g. access to data about other installed apps), then the app should be either lied to by the OS or banned by the platform provider. There's an inherent conflict between the needs of the app developers and users. The device manufacturers have to take a side in that conflict, presumably the side of the user who's paying them for the device.
    - 7y ago
taurath 7y ago
The problem is distribution. You can’t get even 5% of people to actually care enough about privacy to make a configuration change.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- stevenjohns 7y ago
  That shouldn’t be the responsibility of the users. It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer, even if the end user isn’t aware of or care for those improvements. This takes place in every industry except for software development.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    > It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer, even if the end user isn’t aware of or care for those improvements. Manufacturers are incentivized to install bloatware and, in some cases, outright malware. Fixing this requires legal action.
  - ajsnigrutin 7y ago
    > It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer In case of google (android), it's the manufacturer (of the OS) earning money on this
badrabbit 7y ago
Think of these apps as malware,after all they are hostile. In dynamic malware analysis, virtualized and emulated environments are used to run malware samples to analyze their behavior. It's like a tom and jerry cat and mouse game with the jerry always winning (like the show!). It's trivial to detect virtualized environments , not only that, the samples can afford to be patient and meticulous,and test themselves against existing analysis methods before deployment. That's why real hardware is the best place to study malware. Your disadvantage here is that fingerprinting is a game of accuracy, where the adversary gains accuracy at basically a logarithmic(or geometric?) scale for every additional data point they have about your device, sometimes they only need one data point,such as a shared file system,let me explain: most apps need storage access right? Like you want them to read existing files or write files to be accesses by other apps. App1 writes a file with a random name or random content, app2 through appN in their affiliate network check that location/file for the random value to track your device. The apps in this network all collect various data points about you, let's say one app gets your real name and address (payment and shipping),now all the apps know those two things about you. Now they all know your zipcode and can infer things about you based on that,your last name,etc...and even do background check like lookups to know your past addresses aquaintances, cars you've driven,court cases and so much more. Now let's say one of these apps needs to send you text before it can function(most popular apps these days) , now all of them know your phone,can get a ton of info about you,who else has you as contacts and they can infer even more about if at least one of the people they track has your number as contact and they basically opened up their lives to all apps. You can add all the layers of abstraction you want. Apps need to talk to each other and external sites/services need to reach you at a predictabl address (including physical address and such). And even if what you said was effective, it's incredibly hard to achieve without the user being very cooperative towards their own privacy preservation, and evem then ,like I said above, if anyone you have as contact reaches you using a predictable address, a lot can be constructed about solely based on their choices. My solution is legal. Make it a crime and start throwing people in prison. If someone violates your consent to stalk you or creates public opportunities of business or employment where consenting to stalking is a requirement, make it a felony. And make privacy a core right for peoples of any society that calls itself free. Unlike with malware authors, we can easily find the execs behind stalkerware and we can make them take responsibility (assuming people want liberty and democracy more than political theatrics).
mintplant 7y ago
LineageOS offers this through Privacy Guard. But it's been pushed deeper and deeper in the settings hierarchy, and will be removed next release due to maintenance burden.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  I block ads and trackers where I can but also recognize the value in understanding how one's app is used. So I'm curious how privacy-focused mods figure out which features users most want without being able to track users. It seems like a huge risk to remove a feature that could be your killer feature but you just don't know.
  - choward 7y ago
    How did product manufacturers figure out what features users wanted most before modern technology? I'm guessing they didn't just set up a hidden camera in their homes and spy on them using it without their permission.
    - maccard 7y ago
      They asked customers, and developed based on feedback from engineers, PMs, etc. As someone who works in an industry where people are vocal about what we should be doing, what people do and what people say they do are two different things. That, and products are different now. Software releases are daily if not more often, and to keep up with that sort of pace, you need data quicker than you can get in and analyze hundreds of people. There must be a middle ground though. It can't be necessary for me to share my location data with an app for analytics, nor should it be necessary for me to provide a timestamped personally identifiavle breadcrumb trail, just so a site can know how i navigated.
      - Nextgrid 7y ago
        I noticed the quality of software has declined significantly in the last decade despite more and more telemetry & analytics being used. I'm not convinced analytics provide more valuable insights than committed customers' feedback.

anon_d 7y ago

This is an amazing idea.

zachthewf 7y ago
I totally agree. Beyond the obvious privacy gains (which I am very much here for) I'd love to be able to take on different virtual personas within some of these apps just to understand the media landscape of people other than myself. It's always a bit of a trip when to see how the web experience changes when I borrow my girlfriend's laptop, and she's pretty similar to me in the great scheme of things.

el_dev_hell 7y ago

I'm not an app developer. Would this be technically doable on Android? Isn't there already support for running certain apps in a sandbox/container?

Bnshsysjab 7y ago
I _think_ cyanogenmod exposes some of this functionality. But as soon as it’s implemented, snoopy apps will just raise the bar further (sms verification, face verification, ‘add this contact to your phone book’, etc)
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  Yep. It's going to be an arms race. So be it. Our AI vs. adtech AI.
  - other_herbert 7y ago
    It may just be that once this exists then you end up in the "software engineer who uses hn " bucket and will just see adds for ssds and processors and coding conferences... A segment that is really hard to identify may turn into a group that is generally easy to identify...
    - pferde 7y ago
      That's good, that's how we know it works. From there, it can spread to family members, friends, etc.
  - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
    Please don’t. I can’t beat google captchas as it is.
- loa_in_ 7y ago
  They can verify SMS all they want but they'll sell my location data consisting only of my random floats. I don't mind legitimate uses, like verifying you're a human or a real user for that matter.
Avamander 7y ago
It has been done by XPrivacy and XPrivacyLua.

nickhalfasleep 7y ago

Or an app that provides a link to a remotely hosted desktop or mobile environment to surf / run apps from.

karlding 7y ago

> One more time, what mobile phone owners need is an intermediary layer in the mobile OS where they can either manually or programmatically (via e.g. a random number generator) lie to higher-level application layers about the phone's data. On Android, if you install Xposed, there's XPrivacy [0], which essentially had this premise. Unfortunately, it only supports versions 4.0.3-5.1.1 (and is no longer maintained). I haven't been following the rooting community for a while, so someone can probably correct me if there's a better alternative now, but I believe the replacement is XPrivacyLua [1]. [0] https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/xprivacylua-xposed-module-privacy/ https://www.xda-developers.com/xprivacylua-xposed-module-pri...

Avamander 7y ago
You can use XPrivacyLua on later Androids: https://forum.xda-developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6-0-android-privacy-manager-t3730663 https://forum.xda-developers.com/xposed/modules/xprivacylua6...
NegativeShape 7y ago
Many applications force-stop when you use Xprivacy. Even worse, applications like instagram refuses to login on a phone with xprivacy installed.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  The fact that this is possible is a symptom of the wider problem - the OS should ensure that it's impossible for the other app to know if Xprivacy is running or installed. Instagram should be running in a sandbox that gets truth only if the user actually wishes to give it the truth, and if they want to demand unnecessary info from the user (e.g. access to data about other installed apps), then the app should be either lied to by the OS or banned by the platform provider. There's an inherent conflict between the needs of the app developers and users. The device manufacturers have to take a side in that conflict, presumably the side of the user who's paying them for the device.
  - 7y ago

taurath 7y ago

The problem is distribution. You can’t get even 5% of people to actually care enough about privacy to make a configuration change.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
stevenjohns 7y ago
That shouldn’t be the responsibility of the users. It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer, even if the end user isn’t aware of or care for those improvements. This takes place in every industry except for software development.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer, even if the end user isn’t aware of or care for those improvements. Manufacturers are incentivized to install bloatware and, in some cases, outright malware. Fixing this requires legal action.
- ajsnigrutin 7y ago
  > It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer In case of google (android), it's the manufacturer (of the OS) earning money on this

badrabbit 7y ago

Think of these apps as malware,after all they are hostile. In dynamic malware analysis, virtualized and emulated environments are used to run malware samples to analyze their behavior. It's like a tom and jerry cat and mouse game with the jerry always winning (like the show!). It's trivial to detect virtualized environments , not only that, the samples can afford to be patient and meticulous,and test themselves against existing analysis methods before deployment. That's why real hardware is the best place to study malware. Your disadvantage here is that fingerprinting is a game of accuracy, where the adversary gains accuracy at basically a logarithmic(or geometric?) scale for every additional data point they have about your device, sometimes they only need one data point,such as a shared file system,let me explain: most apps need storage access right? Like you want them to read existing files or write files to be accesses by other apps. App1 writes a file with a random name or random content, app2 through appN in their affiliate network check that location/file for the random value to track your device. The apps in this network all collect various data points about you, let's say one app gets your real name and address (payment and shipping),now all the apps know those two things about you. Now they all know your zipcode and can infer things about you based on that,your last name,etc...and even do background check like lookups to know your past addresses aquaintances, cars you've driven,court cases and so much more. Now let's say one of these apps needs to send you text before it can function(most popular apps these days) , now all of them know your phone,can get a ton of info about you,who else has you as contacts and they can infer even more about if at least one of the people they track has your number as contact and they basically opened up their lives to all apps. You can add all the layers of abstraction you want. Apps need to talk to each other and external sites/services need to reach you at a predictabl address (including physical address and such). And even if what you said was effective, it's incredibly hard to achieve without the user being very cooperative towards their own privacy preservation, and evem then ,like I said above, if anyone you have as contact reaches you using a predictable address, a lot can be constructed about solely based on their choices. My solution is legal. Make it a crime and start throwing people in prison. If someone violates your consent to stalk you or creates public opportunities of business or employment where consenting to stalking is a requirement, make it a felony. And make privacy a core right for peoples of any society that calls itself free. Unlike with malware authors, we can easily find the execs behind stalkerware and we can make them take responsibility (assuming people want liberty and democracy more than political theatrics).

mintplant 7y ago

LineageOS offers this through Privacy Guard. But it's been pushed deeper and deeper in the settings hierarchy, and will be removed next release due to maintenance burden.

nitrogen 7y ago
I block ads and trackers where I can but also recognize the value in understanding how one's app is used. So I'm curious how privacy-focused mods figure out which features users most want without being able to track users. It seems like a huge risk to remove a feature that could be your killer feature but you just don't know.
- choward 7y ago
  How did product manufacturers figure out what features users wanted most before modern technology? I'm guessing they didn't just set up a hidden camera in their homes and spy on them using it without their permission.
  - maccard 7y ago
    They asked customers, and developed based on feedback from engineers, PMs, etc. As someone who works in an industry where people are vocal about what we should be doing, what people do and what people say they do are two different things. That, and products are different now. Software releases are daily if not more often, and to keep up with that sort of pace, you need data quicker than you can get in and analyze hundreds of people. There must be a middle ground though. It can't be necessary for me to share my location data with an app for analytics, nor should it be necessary for me to provide a timestamped personally identifiavle breadcrumb trail, just so a site can know how i navigated.
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      I noticed the quality of software has declined significantly in the last decade despite more and more telemetry & analytics being used. I'm not convinced analytics provide more valuable insights than committed customers' feedback.