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>Scotland [...] has a goal to source the equivalent of 100% of its electricity demand from renewable energy sources by the end of this year. What does 'equival

by Camas 7y ago

>Scotland [...] has a goal to source the equivalent of 100% of its electricity demand from renewable energy sources by the end of this year. What does 'equivalent' mean in this sentence?

brailsafe 7y ago
My thought was that it was a way of saying net zero use of renewables as in io. But I don't know if that makes any sense.
est31 7y ago
Scotland does not have an independent grid. There is an EU wide market to trade electric energy between countries. Some days they export elecric energy, other days they import it. Even if 100% of their local production is renewable, the energy they import is probably (partly) not. So I guess the 'equivalent' means that summed up over the entire year, they export at least the same amount of energy that they import. You can check this site for the present state (it doesn't show scotland though): https://www.electricitymap.org/ https://www.electricitymap.org/
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Might change with Brexit (re independent grid).
  - Rexxar 7y ago
    They have nothing to win to do this.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      I’m not arguing the rationality, only the possible outcome. Texas has its own grid (ERCOT) because Texas. Humans are quirky.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Is that likely? Hard to imagine anyone wants to deal with that regardless of how they feel about Brexit. Plenty of independent nation's share grids.
  - jussij 7y ago
    Since we are talking hypotheticals, if those pushing for Scottish independence get their way, sometime in the future Scotland may find itself out of the UK and back in the EU.
- gruez 7y ago
  >So I guess the 'equivalent' means that summed up over the entire year, they export at least the same amount of energy that they import. This bit is important, because it's possible to be "100% renewable", yet at the same time spew massive amounts of carbon. https://energy.stanford.edu/news/100-renewables-doesn-t-equal-zero-carbon-energy-and-difference-growing https://energy.stanford.edu/news/100-renewables-doesn-t-equa...
  - uncle_j 7y ago
    The SNP were saying that Scotland could go independent on their Oil price not long ago. The SNP will say anything essentially to virtue signal against Westminster. This appears to be another case of that, Holyrood making a lot of noise when they run at a deficit while pretending they want to leave the UK.
    - thawaway1837 7y ago
      Scotland is hosting a climate summit, and chooses to market a climate achievement. Yet you think this is all about virtue signalling to Westminster. Your comment says a lot more about how England still sees itself at the centre of the world than about the (very real) glass of Holyrood and the SNP.
      - uncle_j 7y ago
        > Scotland is hosting a climate summit, and chooses to market a climate achievement. If it wasn't "in vogue" they the SNP wouldn't be doing it. As I previously said (which you have ignored) that the SNP were previously saying they could fund Scotland on Oil (it couldn't but that is another matter). > Yet you think this is all about virtue signalling to Westminster. Yes. > Your comment says a lot more about how England still sees itself at the centre of the world than about the (very real) glass of Holyrood and the SNP. That is quite presumptive, I have lived abroad for a number of years before returning to England. I understand the world is a large place. I speak to a lot of people I know that come from Scotland and quite a few that are English that have moved there recently, So I do actually speak to people there. The SNP are generally awful e.g. just look at Ian Blackwood embarrassing himself in Westminster or on the BBC which he has plenty of time for but he can't be bothered to turn up to his own constituency hustings (You can find this easily on Youtube). They constantly blame everything on Westminster (because it suits them to do so) and if the Wind blows the other way they will claim it is grounds for another Independence Referendum even though they agreed to it being a once in a lifetime vote back in 2014. They also lie to their voters about rejoining the EU after we Leave if they go independent. Spain will veto any vote (because it will give legitimacy to the Catalan independence movement) and the EU only allows in countries with deficit of 2-3% (IIRC) and people estimate that the deficit for Scotland is between 7-10% (IIRC).
tito 7y ago
It's the difference between using and selling to another country. For example, let's say my energy demand for 1 year is 1 GW. I generate that 1 GW using solar. But I sell 50% of it to a neighbor. Inside my house, I use gas for that missing 50%. Overall, I've "generated 100%" of my needs from renewables. I (Scotland) sell clean energy to my neighbor (Europe). I skimmed this article for inspiration: http://euanmearns.com/scotlands-wind-exports-to-england-and-the-myth-of-a-100-renewable-scotland/ http://euanmearns.com/scotlands-wind-exports-to-england-and-...
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Pretty sure the UK National Grid does not have interconnects and pricing between Scotland and England in the same way as between UK and interconnect partners in the EU. It's part of the same grid. Scotland has no choice but that some of it be fossil unless and until England and Wales are fully renewable also. Northern Ireland and Orkney do have interconnects. So they can monitor total renewable generation, and total consumption, but can't have influence on what the shortfall is made up by. I've no doubt the grid will move toward more locality as it redesigns for a smart grid suitable for 100% renewables, and Scottish independence might provoke formal interconnecting. For now they are both in the same 'house'. Edit: I find myself newly suspicious of that site's agenda as he links to Watts Up With That, a notorious and extreme denialist site in his blog role. His phrasing may have been carefully chosen to downplay and minimise the achievement. He seems to have a fair time in the oil industry from his about page.
  - makomk 7y ago
    I don't think it's just a question of Scotland not having a choice about where the shortfall is made up by, but of the shortfall having to be made up using fossil fuels. For context, because Scotland is so big and empty, a disproportionate chunk of UK wind power is based there compared to their population - so much so that if I remember correctly their wind power has to curtail sometimes due to interconnect limits with the rest of the UK. It's kind of hard to get day-by-day or hour-by-hour figures for Scotland alone, but Scottish nuclear + renewables in the entire UK dropped well below Scotland's peak demand a good few times just in the last two months. That shortfall has to be made up using fossil fuels, there's no alternative - and a good chunk of that is going to be Scottish fossil fuel plants due to interconnect limits. The Scottish government is simply using the fact that a disprortionate amount of UK wind power ended up there to spin themselves as less dependent on fossil electricity than they are. You can't measure progress towards an 100% grid using net figures like this because the last bit of demand is so much harder to satisfy renewably than the first, and countries with the ability to play silly tricks like this with net power can skip the hard part and pretend they've solved the problem. If/when renewable generation in England and Wales increases it might well even roll this figure back as less electricity is imported during peak wind generation, despite the fact that both Scotland and the rest of the UK would be getting more of their actual electricity from renewable sources.
eigenvector 7y ago
The total energy generated from renewable sources over some time period (let's say a calendar year to account for seasonal variance) equals the total energy consumed in the same period. However, renewable generation does not equal total consumption instantaneously at every moment in that period.
- Qworg 7y ago
  Sadly, the Orkneys could provide even more renewables if Scotland would build a larger export cable. Instead, the islands are forced to build hydrogen plants and turn off wind generators. Last I checked, they were at 108% renewable.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    It does mean some interesting work is being done using hydrogen as storage, and for the ferries (not sure how far along the hydrogen ferries are).

by Camas 7y ago

>Scotland [...] has a goal to source the equivalent of 100% of its electricity demand from renewable energy sources by the end of this year. What does 'equivalent' mean in this sentence?

brailsafe 7y ago

My thought was that it was a way of saying net zero use of renewables as in io. But I don't know if that makes any sense.

est31 7y ago

Scotland does not have an independent grid. There is an EU wide market to trade electric energy between countries. Some days they export elecric energy, other days they import it. Even if 100% of their local production is renewable, the energy they import is probably (partly) not. So I guess the 'equivalent' means that summed up over the entire year, they export at least the same amount of energy that they import. You can check this site for the present state (it doesn't show scotland though): https://www.electricitymap.org/ https://www.electricitymap.org/

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Might change with Brexit (re independent grid).
- Rexxar 7y ago
  They have nothing to win to do this.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    I’m not arguing the rationality, only the possible outcome. Texas has its own grid (ERCOT) because Texas. Humans are quirky.
- duxup 7y ago
  Is that likely? Hard to imagine anyone wants to deal with that regardless of how they feel about Brexit. Plenty of independent nation's share grids.
- jussij 7y ago
  Since we are talking hypotheticals, if those pushing for Scottish independence get their way, sometime in the future Scotland may find itself out of the UK and back in the EU.
gruez 7y ago
>So I guess the 'equivalent' means that summed up over the entire year, they export at least the same amount of energy that they import. This bit is important, because it's possible to be "100% renewable", yet at the same time spew massive amounts of carbon. https://energy.stanford.edu/news/100-renewables-doesn-t-equal-zero-carbon-energy-and-difference-growing https://energy.stanford.edu/news/100-renewables-doesn-t-equa...
- uncle_j 7y ago
  The SNP were saying that Scotland could go independent on their Oil price not long ago. The SNP will say anything essentially to virtue signal against Westminster. This appears to be another case of that, Holyrood making a lot of noise when they run at a deficit while pretending they want to leave the UK.
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    Scotland is hosting a climate summit, and chooses to market a climate achievement. Yet you think this is all about virtue signalling to Westminster. Your comment says a lot more about how England still sees itself at the centre of the world than about the (very real) glass of Holyrood and the SNP.
    - uncle_j 7y ago
      > Scotland is hosting a climate summit, and chooses to market a climate achievement. If it wasn't "in vogue" they the SNP wouldn't be doing it. As I previously said (which you have ignored) that the SNP were previously saying they could fund Scotland on Oil (it couldn't but that is another matter). > Yet you think this is all about virtue signalling to Westminster. Yes. > Your comment says a lot more about how England still sees itself at the centre of the world than about the (very real) glass of Holyrood and the SNP. That is quite presumptive, I have lived abroad for a number of years before returning to England. I understand the world is a large place. I speak to a lot of people I know that come from Scotland and quite a few that are English that have moved there recently, So I do actually speak to people there. The SNP are generally awful e.g. just look at Ian Blackwood embarrassing himself in Westminster or on the BBC which he has plenty of time for but he can't be bothered to turn up to his own constituency hustings (You can find this easily on Youtube). They constantly blame everything on Westminster (because it suits them to do so) and if the Wind blows the other way they will claim it is grounds for another Independence Referendum even though they agreed to it being a once in a lifetime vote back in 2014. They also lie to their voters about rejoining the EU after we Leave if they go independent. Spain will veto any vote (because it will give legitimacy to the Catalan independence movement) and the EU only allows in countries with deficit of 2-3% (IIRC) and people estimate that the deficit for Scotland is between 7-10% (IIRC).

tito 7y ago

It's the difference between using and selling to another country. For example, let's say my energy demand for 1 year is 1 GW. I generate that 1 GW using solar. But I sell 50% of it to a neighbor. Inside my house, I use gas for that missing 50%. Overall, I've "generated 100%" of my needs from renewables. I (Scotland) sell clean energy to my neighbor (Europe). I skimmed this article for inspiration: http://euanmearns.com/scotlands-wind-exports-to-england-and-the-myth-of-a-100-renewable-scotland/ http://euanmearns.com/scotlands-wind-exports-to-england-and-...

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Pretty sure the UK National Grid does not have interconnects and pricing between Scotland and England in the same way as between UK and interconnect partners in the EU. It's part of the same grid. Scotland has no choice but that some of it be fossil unless and until England and Wales are fully renewable also. Northern Ireland and Orkney do have interconnects. So they can monitor total renewable generation, and total consumption, but can't have influence on what the shortfall is made up by. I've no doubt the grid will move toward more locality as it redesigns for a smart grid suitable for 100% renewables, and Scottish independence might provoke formal interconnecting. For now they are both in the same 'house'. Edit: I find myself newly suspicious of that site's agenda as he links to Watts Up With That, a notorious and extreme denialist site in his blog role. His phrasing may have been carefully chosen to downplay and minimise the achievement. He seems to have a fair time in the oil industry from his about page.
- makomk 7y ago
  I don't think it's just a question of Scotland not having a choice about where the shortfall is made up by, but of the shortfall having to be made up using fossil fuels. For context, because Scotland is so big and empty, a disproportionate chunk of UK wind power is based there compared to their population - so much so that if I remember correctly their wind power has to curtail sometimes due to interconnect limits with the rest of the UK. It's kind of hard to get day-by-day or hour-by-hour figures for Scotland alone, but Scottish nuclear + renewables in the entire UK dropped well below Scotland's peak demand a good few times just in the last two months. That shortfall has to be made up using fossil fuels, there's no alternative - and a good chunk of that is going to be Scottish fossil fuel plants due to interconnect limits. The Scottish government is simply using the fact that a disprortionate amount of UK wind power ended up there to spin themselves as less dependent on fossil electricity than they are. You can't measure progress towards an 100% grid using net figures like this because the last bit of demand is so much harder to satisfy renewably than the first, and countries with the ability to play silly tricks like this with net power can skip the hard part and pretend they've solved the problem. If/when renewable generation in England and Wales increases it might well even roll this figure back as less electricity is imported during peak wind generation, despite the fact that both Scotland and the rest of the UK would be getting more of their actual electricity from renewable sources.

eigenvector 7y ago

The total energy generated from renewable sources over some time period (let's say a calendar year to account for seasonal variance) equals the total energy consumed in the same period. However, renewable generation does not equal total consumption instantaneously at every moment in that period.

Qworg 7y ago
Sadly, the Orkneys could provide even more renewables if Scotland would build a larger export cable. Instead, the islands are forced to build hydrogen plants and turn off wind generators. Last I checked, they were at 108% renewable.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  It does mean some interesting work is being done using hydrogen as storage, and for the ferries (not sure how far along the hydrogen ferries are).