11 ms·

Good luck to Brad. It sounds like the last twelve years of his life were pure Google, it's a big change. > I don't want to get stuck in a comfortable rut. (And

Good luck to Brad. It sounds like the last twelve years of his life were pure Google, it's a big change. > I don't want to get stuck in a comfortable rut. (And Google certainly is comfortable, except for open floor plans.) It's oddly comforting that even programmers of Brad's caliber are forced to cope with open offices. When can this fad end.

xwowsersx 7y ago
I hate it so much.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  So many companies, even non-tech companies with tech divisions adopted this plague and now it seems there is no turning back. I find the constant movement to be the biggest distraction over noise.
  - dchyrdvh 7y ago
    Movement distracts our attention thru vision (as we need to put effort to ignore the moving objects) and sounds do the same thru hearing. I'd compare doing highly focused work in such conditions to balancing on one leg in a curious yoga position while random people walk by and push you without a warning.
  - User23 7y ago
    If you have diagnosed ADHD and are forced to work in an extremely distracting environment like an open floor plan then talk to your manager and HR about getting an accommodation. They will work with you to find some reasonable way to limit the distraction based on the particulars of your workplace.
    - bloodorange 7y ago
      Alternately, they'll make no accommodations. The developer's productivity keeps falling. Eventually he's put on a PIP (performance improvement plan) and finally once it runs its course, they'll have a legal way to just kick him out.
      - outworlder 7y ago
        Yeah, that depends entirely on the company and – most importantly – you current boss. Also, I don't think ADHD is a protected class so, even if accommodations are made, the next boss that comes over can totally do the PIP thing. For anyone reading this: if you ever find yourself placed in a "PIP", leave. That's like being inside a black hole's event horizon, you'll never come back.
        pseudalopex 7y ago
        Disability is a protected class, but proving discrimination can be difficult.
        User23 7y ago
        You can in fact refuse a PIP. I don't mean refuse to sign the paper they give you, I mean refuse the whole process. This will almost certainly result in the termination of your employment, but depending on the circumstances you may get far better terms than simply being let go. That said, I have seen people come back from a PIP and kill it, to the point where on their next review they get all of the equity they lost in the prior cycle plus the comp from the new cycle. Obviously this is rare, but I have seen it.
      - User23 7y ago
        Most companies want their employees to provide them with value and are willing to make reasonable accommodations toward that end. If you have an hostile manager or HR department then yes it's time to move on.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >I find the constant movement to be the biggest distraction over noise. I find movement to be distracting as well (esp. if I'm sitting next to a high-traffic aisle as I was in one short-lived position). However, what's even worse for me is when several different conversations all start up at the same time, in the same space. Americans are already extremely loud talkers, but then stick a bunch of them together in one room, having 2-5 different conversations simultaneously, and I truly don't understand how anyone can take it, or even understand whichever conversation they're part of.
  - xwowsersx 7y ago
    Movement is a big one, noise bothers me more personally I think. I dislike the fact that I cannot function at work without headphones. I have 2-3 feet of my space between me and other co-workers and at any point in time, there's various conversations going on right next to me and it's making getting deep work done very challenging.
- aswanson 7y ago
  What dolt would think that more noise & distraction would make for a more productive workplace where the product requires sustained periods of focus? It's literally the dumbest thing you can do in that circumstance.
  - marketingfool 7y ago
    Cheaper and more hipster?
  - ibeckermayer 7y ago
    I think that’s all just propaganda and the real reason for it is so that management can always keep an eye on their code cattle
    - pnako 7y ago
      I don't think it's about monitoring, but it's probably about status, and your use of the word 'code cattle' seems relevant (I was also thinking about farms). Or a more apt comparison would be factory floors.
    - xwowsersx 7y ago
      I don't think it's nefarious, not usually at least. It's just a lot cheaper and then it's justified after-the-fact as fostering collaboration or whatever. I'm not asking for my own office (though I would love it), but at least some physical division like a cubicle.
- leggomylibro 7y ago
  It's beyond terrible. I quit my last job (which I otherwise enjoyed and felt fulfilled by) because of the open floorplan and the impossibility of changing it. Sometimes you have to vote with your feet.
golergka 7y ago
I'm nowherer near his level, but I have, over the course of my career, rejected several job offers, explicitly saying the recruiter that their open office was the deal breaker. Nothing stops most developers from doing the same. It's just a question of priorities.
marketingfool 7y ago
I think it allows for low cost "benefits" HR can sell. Sure they save 10% on real estate due to absences, but I wonder if it's to sell a cool look. GM just changed to open floor plan.
paulw88 7y ago
I would be much happier with smallish offices shared by small groups. Small private offices like Fog Creek would be my ideal: https://i0.wp.com/www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/29-office.jpg?ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/...
- markdown 7y ago
  Those wires though :O
  - oblio 7y ago
    That photo is from 2008, though: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-office/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-...
SamWhited 7y ago
> When can this fad end It's not a fad, businesses aren't doing this just because it's trendy and cool and they think people will like it, they're doing it because it saves them a fortune and they care more about their bottom line than their employees well being.
- VRay 7y ago
  It saves a fortune, but the companies are spending a fortune on their employees' salary and benefits too I think we're talking the difference between $300/month on open desk space vs $1000/month on an office. It's a lot of money and it adds up, but these people are costing the company a total of $10k-$40k a month My theory is that open space is extremely helpful to certain types of people, and those traits coincidentally overlap with the people calling the shots at a lot of companies. Sociable upper managerial-types probably value being able to collaborate more easily in open space more than being able to concentrate in private offices. Plus it's harder to get away with blatantly goofing off if anyone can look over and see your screen at any time, but I dunno how big a deal that is when people are setting their own hours and picking the projects they're working on. At least in my case, I don't give a crap if my teammates have Facebook and Netflix onscreen at all times so long as they're getting their jobs done
  - bovermyer 7y ago
    Salary and benefits come out of a different bucket than office equipment and installations.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      So what?
      - bovermyer 7y ago
        It matters in this case because the discussion took a turn towards comparing the compensation of staff to the provisioning of the office environment. In that context, companies' consideration of expenditures will take into account capital versus operational categories.
pjmlp 7y ago
It has been a fad as long as I can remember. Doing this since the mid-80's.
musicale 7y ago
> When can this fad end. When the monetary and other incentives change. Open plan offices are currently the cheapest way to cram bodies into office space, and the loss in productivity, quality of life, privacy and sanity doesn't factor into the facilities cost equation, which considers facility capital and operational expenses and ignores everything else. As others have noted, the executives who make decisions also enjoy easy surveillance, which is facilitated by open plan offices.
blueboo 7y ago
It's not just a fad, the trend is going deeper in that direction -- hotseating for frictionless collaboration!
fh973 7y ago
Consider that companies may prioritize team productivity over individual productivity. Communication and density could be beneficial towards that.
- ch4s3 7y ago
  There's some pretty compelling evidence that open offices diminish communication.
  - fh973 7y ago
    There is a spectrum of "open". The Google offices I know are not wide open areas but team offices or areas.
umeshunni 7y ago
I'm surprised no one has brought up Joel Spolsky's takes on open offices (from 2006) from right at the beginning of this fad: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-developers-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d... https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/07/30/private-offices-redux/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/07/30/private-offices-re...

xwowsersx 7y ago

I hate it so much.

chrshawkes 7y ago
So many companies, even non-tech companies with tech divisions adopted this plague and now it seems there is no turning back. I find the constant movement to be the biggest distraction over noise.
- dchyrdvh 7y ago
  Movement distracts our attention thru vision (as we need to put effort to ignore the moving objects) and sounds do the same thru hearing. I'd compare doing highly focused work in such conditions to balancing on one leg in a curious yoga position while random people walk by and push you without a warning.
- User23 7y ago
  If you have diagnosed ADHD and are forced to work in an extremely distracting environment like an open floor plan then talk to your manager and HR about getting an accommodation. They will work with you to find some reasonable way to limit the distraction based on the particulars of your workplace.
  - bloodorange 7y ago
    Alternately, they'll make no accommodations. The developer's productivity keeps falling. Eventually he's put on a PIP (performance improvement plan) and finally once it runs its course, they'll have a legal way to just kick him out.
    - outworlder 7y ago
      Yeah, that depends entirely on the company and – most importantly – you current boss. Also, I don't think ADHD is a protected class so, even if accommodations are made, the next boss that comes over can totally do the PIP thing. For anyone reading this: if you ever find yourself placed in a "PIP", leave. That's like being inside a black hole's event horizon, you'll never come back.
      - pseudalopex 7y ago
        Disability is a protected class, but proving discrimination can be difficult.
      - User23 7y ago
        You can in fact refuse a PIP. I don't mean refuse to sign the paper they give you, I mean refuse the whole process. This will almost certainly result in the termination of your employment, but depending on the circumstances you may get far better terms than simply being let go. That said, I have seen people come back from a PIP and kill it, to the point where on their next review they get all of the equity they lost in the prior cycle plus the comp from the new cycle. Obviously this is rare, but I have seen it.
    - User23 7y ago
      Most companies want their employees to provide them with value and are willing to make reasonable accommodations toward that end. If you have an hostile manager or HR department then yes it's time to move on.
- magduf 7y ago
  >I find the constant movement to be the biggest distraction over noise. I find movement to be distracting as well (esp. if I'm sitting next to a high-traffic aisle as I was in one short-lived position). However, what's even worse for me is when several different conversations all start up at the same time, in the same space. Americans are already extremely loud talkers, but then stick a bunch of them together in one room, having 2-5 different conversations simultaneously, and I truly don't understand how anyone can take it, or even understand whichever conversation they're part of.
- xwowsersx 7y ago
  Movement is a big one, noise bothers me more personally I think. I dislike the fact that I cannot function at work without headphones. I have 2-3 feet of my space between me and other co-workers and at any point in time, there's various conversations going on right next to me and it's making getting deep work done very challenging.
aswanson 7y ago
What dolt would think that more noise & distraction would make for a more productive workplace where the product requires sustained periods of focus? It's literally the dumbest thing you can do in that circumstance.
- marketingfool 7y ago
  Cheaper and more hipster?
- ibeckermayer 7y ago
  I think that’s all just propaganda and the real reason for it is so that management can always keep an eye on their code cattle
  - pnako 7y ago
    I don't think it's about monitoring, but it's probably about status, and your use of the word 'code cattle' seems relevant (I was also thinking about farms). Or a more apt comparison would be factory floors.
  - xwowsersx 7y ago
    I don't think it's nefarious, not usually at least. It's just a lot cheaper and then it's justified after-the-fact as fostering collaboration or whatever. I'm not asking for my own office (though I would love it), but at least some physical division like a cubicle.
leggomylibro 7y ago
It's beyond terrible. I quit my last job (which I otherwise enjoyed and felt fulfilled by) because of the open floorplan and the impossibility of changing it. Sometimes you have to vote with your feet.

golergka 7y ago

I'm nowherer near his level, but I have, over the course of my career, rejected several job offers, explicitly saying the recruiter that their open office was the deal breaker. Nothing stops most developers from doing the same. It's just a question of priorities.

marketingfool 7y ago

I think it allows for low cost "benefits" HR can sell. Sure they save 10% on real estate due to absences, but I wonder if it's to sell a cool look. GM just changed to open floor plan.

paulw88 7y ago

I would be much happier with smallish offices shared by small groups. Small private offices like Fog Creek would be my ideal: https://i0.wp.com/www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/29-office.jpg?ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/...

markdown 7y ago
Those wires though :O
- oblio 7y ago
  That photo is from 2008, though: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-office/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-...

SamWhited 7y ago

> When can this fad end It's not a fad, businesses aren't doing this just because it's trendy and cool and they think people will like it, they're doing it because it saves them a fortune and they care more about their bottom line than their employees well being.

VRay 7y ago
It saves a fortune, but the companies are spending a fortune on their employees' salary and benefits too I think we're talking the difference between $300/month on open desk space vs $1000/month on an office. It's a lot of money and it adds up, but these people are costing the company a total of $10k-$40k a month My theory is that open space is extremely helpful to certain types of people, and those traits coincidentally overlap with the people calling the shots at a lot of companies. Sociable upper managerial-types probably value being able to collaborate more easily in open space more than being able to concentrate in private offices. Plus it's harder to get away with blatantly goofing off if anyone can look over and see your screen at any time, but I dunno how big a deal that is when people are setting their own hours and picking the projects they're working on. At least in my case, I don't give a crap if my teammates have Facebook and Netflix onscreen at all times so long as they're getting their jobs done
- bovermyer 7y ago
  Salary and benefits come out of a different bucket than office equipment and installations.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    So what?
    - bovermyer 7y ago
      It matters in this case because the discussion took a turn towards comparing the compensation of staff to the provisioning of the office environment. In that context, companies' consideration of expenditures will take into account capital versus operational categories.

pjmlp 7y ago

It has been a fad as long as I can remember. Doing this since the mid-80's.

musicale 7y ago

> When can this fad end. When the monetary and other incentives change. Open plan offices are currently the cheapest way to cram bodies into office space, and the loss in productivity, quality of life, privacy and sanity doesn't factor into the facilities cost equation, which considers facility capital and operational expenses and ignores everything else. As others have noted, the executives who make decisions also enjoy easy surveillance, which is facilitated by open plan offices.

blueboo 7y ago

It's not just a fad, the trend is going deeper in that direction -- hotseating for frictionless collaboration!

fh973 7y ago

Consider that companies may prioritize team productivity over individual productivity. Communication and density could be beneficial towards that.

ch4s3 7y ago
There's some pretty compelling evidence that open offices diminish communication.
- fh973 7y ago
  There is a spectrum of "open". The Google offices I know are not wide open areas but team offices or areas.

umeshunni 7y ago

I'm surprised no one has brought up Joel Spolsky's takes on open offices (from 2006) from right at the beginning of this fad: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-developers-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d... https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/07/30/private-offices-redux/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/07/30/private-offices-re...