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This is a very arbitrary definition of serious effort. I learned one language to the point of being reasonably fluent without ever "drilling". I just listened a

This is a very arbitrary definition of serious effort. I learned one language to the point of being reasonably fluent without ever "drilling". I just listened and spoke in class You also conveniently ignore the countless people (including adults) who reach fluency without even studying, instead just picking it up from immersion: work, media, etc. Duolingo is a specific tool. Like any tool, it's best for specific uses. Your judging its users as "lazy" is both baseless and unhelpful

andrewzah 7y ago
What is "fluent" to you? I highly doubt anyone has ever become fluent in any language from a class. Classes are always behind, and teach textbook variants of a language. Useful, but won't make you "fluent". Immersion is still studying. Digesting actual native material ranges from hard to very difficult (i.e. dramas vs comedy shows, etc). Immersion + studying textbooks is 1000x better than gamified sources like duolingo, particularly for Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Also without knowing your native language and target language, the comparison is not useful. Spanish is quite easy for English speakers; good luck learning Cantonese without studying [for a very long time].
- silicon2401 7y ago
  You come off attached to your existing conclusions: All duolingo users are lazy, and nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class. You're free to believe these things if you want, but it will prevent us from having a constructive discussion. Cheers
  - andrewzah 7y ago
    > All duolingo users are lazy Nope. Not everyone has a lot of time to dedicate to studying a language, which is fine. But duolingo is never going to give you any meaningful fluency. It's like saying "I want to get ripped by only doing body weight exercises for 5 mins/day". If your goal is just to say "Hi my name is X, where is the bathroom", then by all means use duolingo. > nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class No class will ever teach you everything about a language, partly because there is way too much to teach, and partly because languages change all the time and classes can't keep up. Instead, classes give you a starting point to start reaching fluency, which begins once you start consuming native material and having conversations with real native speakers. Classes don't teach you slang, pop culture, casual expressions, and so on. Fluency is not making simple paragraphs or having a very basic, limited in scope & topic 10 min conversation. Language learning literature and other resources have lowered the bar for what "fluency" is, because nobody can sell a book or other resource by saying "use this book and learn french in 3-5 years". There is a lot of snake oil in this area, but people also want to believe in this notion that they can fluently speak a language with minimal effort.

andrewzah 7y ago

What is "fluent" to you? I highly doubt anyone has ever become fluent in any language from a class. Classes are always behind, and teach textbook variants of a language. Useful, but won't make you "fluent". Immersion is still studying. Digesting actual native material ranges from hard to very difficult (i.e. dramas vs comedy shows, etc). Immersion + studying textbooks is 1000x better than gamified sources like duolingo, particularly for Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Also without knowing your native language and target language, the comparison is not useful. Spanish is quite easy for English speakers; good luck learning Cantonese without studying [for a very long time].

silicon2401 7y ago
You come off attached to your existing conclusions: All duolingo users are lazy, and nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class. You're free to believe these things if you want, but it will prevent us from having a constructive discussion. Cheers
- andrewzah 7y ago
  > All duolingo users are lazy Nope. Not everyone has a lot of time to dedicate to studying a language, which is fine. But duolingo is never going to give you any meaningful fluency. It's like saying "I want to get ripped by only doing body weight exercises for 5 mins/day". If your goal is just to say "Hi my name is X, where is the bathroom", then by all means use duolingo. > nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class No class will ever teach you everything about a language, partly because there is way too much to teach, and partly because languages change all the time and classes can't keep up. Instead, classes give you a starting point to start reaching fluency, which begins once you start consuming native material and having conversations with real native speakers. Classes don't teach you slang, pop culture, casual expressions, and so on. Fluency is not making simple paragraphs or having a very basic, limited in scope & topic 10 min conversation. Language learning literature and other resources have lowered the bar for what "fluency" is, because nobody can sell a book or other resource by saying "use this book and learn french in 3-5 years". There is a lot of snake oil in this area, but people also want to believe in this notion that they can fluently speak a language with minimal effort.