5 ms·

I think one of the worst parts of this kind of stuff is that paying for the product doesn't mean they stop selling all your data. It just means they make even m

I think one of the worst parts of this kind of stuff is that paying for the product doesn't mean they stop selling all your data. It just means they make even more money off of you.

simias 7y ago
That's the standard these days unfortunately. Why turn these options off when most users won't even notice and you get more money in the end? I wish that my various "premium" subscriptions to services like Spotify or various other apps meant that my privacy will be respected but I have absolutely no illusions about it. That's why I'll never ever consent to turning off u-block, I want the freemium/ad-driven model to die, it's the original evil that makes all these practices worthwhile.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Why turn these options off when most users won't even notice and you get more money in the end? Because it's the right thing to do? Why is it so hard for people in technology to simply do what's right? I don't buy the hackneyed HN arguments about "A company is required to maximize profits for the shareholder!" or high school thought exercises like, "Who gets to decide what is right?" It's simply not that hard. I wonder if software engineers had to pass ethics classes like other types of engineers if the world would be a different place today.
  - simias 7y ago
    To be clear I wasn't condoning this behavior at all, it was just a statement of fact. I also wish people valued ethics over short term profits but here we are. Like my grandmother used to say, there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.
  - salawat 7y ago
    They do in some universities. Even when I was going. Most just treat it as a "Yup, okay fine" course, and many instructors are really bad about making it clear just the kind of heinous things to watch out for. Example: What is an acceptable use case: A) Utilizing photo manipulation to place an individual somewhere they haven't been before. B) The same except for them to enter in a contest. C) The same, for some one who just wants the picture to flesh out a personal scrapbook with a picture of them and their SO having done something they wanted to do, but the SOwasno longer alive for somehow. They don't do a great job at preparing you to understand how industry gets you to actually do unethical things, or how to react when they do. I.e. It's rarely, in my experience, "Hey, do blatantly unethical thing." Though that happens. I've had some snuck by my filters in the form of >Hey welcome aboard! <Several months of innocuous work later>. Okay guys, time for <skeevy thing>. Business really needs this, so it's pretty high visibility. Generally it escapes your notice because for once you're just happy to have clear requirements, and to not be getting jerked around, so you do it. Minimal complaint is encouraged, or will at least be pretended to be entertained, relying on the cushy salary and in-house benefits to carry you through to job completion. But the ball keeps rolling regardless. You can decide to not work on certain stuff, but that generally gets shluffed off to another team that doesn't share your ethical proclivities. The sad thing is, you almost need a labor or professional organization like structure to be capable of keeping major divergence from the ethical straight and narrow in check, because otherwise you can pay lip service to higher ethical and moral standards, but when it comes paycheck time, most are going to go with that phat paycheck. I'm working on considering my next link in the career chain, and ethical implications are strongly influencing my choice. I'm sick and tired of being someone else's money vacuum mechanic. I'd like to work on software that actually helps people. And I'll stop anyone who suggests "but those systems are capital pumps, and help people because the free market." No they don't not in any but the most indirect of ways. If people overall weren't having all their siphoned off them, I'dwager there would be a much higher degree of actualization or entrepreneurial development in the hands of less capital starved people. I know a positive feedback loop when I see one, and you can damn well bet that's why every tech company is scrambling to become a fintech in one way or another.
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      Well yeah, as long as you can't have your engineering degree stripped away for doing unethical things like the OP, and be forbidden to even code for other people for free - like AFAIK it's the case for doctors violating the Hippocratic Oath - then the situation will not get better !
  - mywittyname 7y ago
    > I wonder if software engineers had to pass ethics classes like other types of engineers if the world would be a different place today. I had to take one as part of my ABET program. I highly doubt it made a difference. If anything, it demonstrated how much ethical behavior varies between people. I distinctly remember conversations about how awesome computer-aided sniper rifles would be (before these became a literal thing). That seems completely unethical to me, but I went to a college full of people getting back from tours in Afghanistan, so they had a very different perspective on the topic.
- acdha 7y ago
  There’s an argument that growing awareness will lead to backlash, some of which will carry legal weight. I’m not sure how compelling long-term brand reputation is to most CEOs, however — Apple has been doing well but that’s a single data point with lots of confounds.

I think one of the worst parts of this kind of stuff is that paying for the product doesn't mean they stop selling all your data. It just means they make even more money off of you.

simias 7y ago

That's the standard these days unfortunately. Why turn these options off when most users won't even notice and you get more money in the end? I wish that my various "premium" subscriptions to services like Spotify or various other apps meant that my privacy will be respected but I have absolutely no illusions about it. That's why I'll never ever consent to turning off u-block, I want the freemium/ad-driven model to die, it's the original evil that makes all these practices worthwhile.

reaperducer 7y ago
Why turn these options off when most users won't even notice and you get more money in the end? Because it's the right thing to do? Why is it so hard for people in technology to simply do what's right? I don't buy the hackneyed HN arguments about "A company is required to maximize profits for the shareholder!" or high school thought exercises like, "Who gets to decide what is right?" It's simply not that hard. I wonder if software engineers had to pass ethics classes like other types of engineers if the world would be a different place today.
- simias 7y ago
  To be clear I wasn't condoning this behavior at all, it was just a statement of fact. I also wish people valued ethics over short term profits but here we are. Like my grandmother used to say, there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.
- salawat 7y ago
  They do in some universities. Even when I was going. Most just treat it as a "Yup, okay fine" course, and many instructors are really bad about making it clear just the kind of heinous things to watch out for. Example: What is an acceptable use case: A) Utilizing photo manipulation to place an individual somewhere they haven't been before. B) The same except for them to enter in a contest. C) The same, for some one who just wants the picture to flesh out a personal scrapbook with a picture of them and their SO having done something they wanted to do, but the SOwasno longer alive for somehow. They don't do a great job at preparing you to understand how industry gets you to actually do unethical things, or how to react when they do. I.e. It's rarely, in my experience, "Hey, do blatantly unethical thing." Though that happens. I've had some snuck by my filters in the form of >Hey welcome aboard! <Several months of innocuous work later>. Okay guys, time for <skeevy thing>. Business really needs this, so it's pretty high visibility. Generally it escapes your notice because for once you're just happy to have clear requirements, and to not be getting jerked around, so you do it. Minimal complaint is encouraged, or will at least be pretended to be entertained, relying on the cushy salary and in-house benefits to carry you through to job completion. But the ball keeps rolling regardless. You can decide to not work on certain stuff, but that generally gets shluffed off to another team that doesn't share your ethical proclivities. The sad thing is, you almost need a labor or professional organization like structure to be capable of keeping major divergence from the ethical straight and narrow in check, because otherwise you can pay lip service to higher ethical and moral standards, but when it comes paycheck time, most are going to go with that phat paycheck. I'm working on considering my next link in the career chain, and ethical implications are strongly influencing my choice. I'm sick and tired of being someone else's money vacuum mechanic. I'd like to work on software that actually helps people. And I'll stop anyone who suggests "but those systems are capital pumps, and help people because the free market." No they don't not in any but the most indirect of ways. If people overall weren't having all their siphoned off them, I'dwager there would be a much higher degree of actualization or entrepreneurial development in the hands of less capital starved people. I know a positive feedback loop when I see one, and you can damn well bet that's why every tech company is scrambling to become a fintech in one way or another.
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Well yeah, as long as you can't have your engineering degree stripped away for doing unethical things like the OP, and be forbidden to even code for other people for free - like AFAIK it's the case for doctors violating the Hippocratic Oath - then the situation will not get better !
- mywittyname 7y ago
  > I wonder if software engineers had to pass ethics classes like other types of engineers if the world would be a different place today. I had to take one as part of my ABET program. I highly doubt it made a difference. If anything, it demonstrated how much ethical behavior varies between people. I distinctly remember conversations about how awesome computer-aided sniper rifles would be (before these became a literal thing). That seems completely unethical to me, but I went to a college full of people getting back from tours in Afghanistan, so they had a very different perspective on the topic.
acdha 7y ago
There’s an argument that growing awareness will lead to backlash, some of which will carry legal weight. I’m not sure how compelling long-term brand reputation is to most CEOs, however — Apple has been doing well but that’s a single data point with lots of confounds.