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Serious effort is when you drill the grammar and memorise tense and forms of words. You'll have a base to build on. Take English for example, difference betwee

Serious effort is when you drill the grammar and memorise tense and forms of words. You'll have a base to build on. Take English for example, difference between past simple vs. past continuous is easier explained once than randomly coming across on Duolingo never fully comprehending the principle. Therefore it's faster. And form someone coming from non-Germanic language this will take time to comprehend, kind of like when you first learned some math concepts as a child, some took a while to click. Now take words and their past forms, give, gave, given. In order to use it in a natural way, you first have to drill and memorise many words ... not possible on Duolingo as one lesson you work with a bunch of "gave" and suddenly several lessons you use "given" ... Yes, you can learn language in way that you go China and you're able to make primitive conversations. I know a lot of people speaking French that they learned conversational way and all of them struggle with grammar and despite being able to talk and communicate fluently their language is not enough for professional level or academic level. E.g. my girlfriend and I speak English, a language native to neither of us ... we can live a complete life together and we can talk but to a native speaker her mixing of tenses and grammar would sound like nonsense. This is the case with many of my foreign friends who learned English in a conversational way. Duolingo does the best what it's designed for. It's a way to learn for the lazy, so it is a game.

silicon2401 7y ago
This is a very arbitrary definition of serious effort. I learned one language to the point of being reasonably fluent without ever "drilling". I just listened and spoke in class You also conveniently ignore the countless people (including adults) who reach fluency without even studying, instead just picking it up from immersion: work, media, etc. Duolingo is a specific tool. Like any tool, it's best for specific uses. Your judging its users as "lazy" is both baseless and unhelpful
- andrewzah 7y ago
  What is "fluent" to you? I highly doubt anyone has ever become fluent in any language from a class. Classes are always behind, and teach textbook variants of a language. Useful, but won't make you "fluent". Immersion is still studying. Digesting actual native material ranges from hard to very difficult (i.e. dramas vs comedy shows, etc). Immersion + studying textbooks is 1000x better than gamified sources like duolingo, particularly for Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Also without knowing your native language and target language, the comparison is not useful. Spanish is quite easy for English speakers; good luck learning Cantonese without studying [for a very long time].
  - silicon2401 7y ago
    You come off attached to your existing conclusions: All duolingo users are lazy, and nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class. You're free to believe these things if you want, but it will prevent us from having a constructive discussion. Cheers
    - andrewzah 7y ago
      > All duolingo users are lazy Nope. Not everyone has a lot of time to dedicate to studying a language, which is fine. But duolingo is never going to give you any meaningful fluency. It's like saying "I want to get ripped by only doing body weight exercises for 5 mins/day". If your goal is just to say "Hi my name is X, where is the bathroom", then by all means use duolingo. > nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class No class will ever teach you everything about a language, partly because there is way too much to teach, and partly because languages change all the time and classes can't keep up. Instead, classes give you a starting point to start reaching fluency, which begins once you start consuming native material and having conversations with real native speakers. Classes don't teach you slang, pop culture, casual expressions, and so on. Fluency is not making simple paragraphs or having a very basic, limited in scope & topic 10 min conversation. Language learning literature and other resources have lowered the bar for what "fluency" is, because nobody can sell a book or other resource by saying "use this book and learn french in 3-5 years". There is a lot of snake oil in this area, but people also want to believe in this notion that they can fluently speak a language with minimal effort.
spectramax 7y ago
Could you please recommend an alternative to Duolingo?
- michalu 7y ago
  Memrise is better as its more structured. But it's only as a supplement. Duolingo is also a good supplement, not the primary tool. Best to take some class and drill textbooks with fill-in exercises. Then books with short texts on different topics - highlight words, memorize. Then find ways to practice in real life. Yes people say they used Duolingo to being close to fluent, most people who speak very bad grammar and mix tenses but people don't correct them mush as they get the point. So most are unaware. I speak it from first hand experience knowing about 10 people like that.
  - dominotw 7y ago
    > Best to take some class and drill textbooks with fill-in exercises. I disagree with your analysis. Most people aren't trying to be speaking super gramatically correct sentences. Most are learning to speak passable sentences. Most important thing while learning a language is to have fun, so you can keep coming back to it. Duolingo makes it fun and interactive. Doing endless grammer textbook excerises /drills takes enormous will power that casual learners don't have.
    - michalu 7y ago
      That was exactly my point. And Duolingo is the perfect tool for such people ... for those who want to master the language and have the will Duolingo will slow you down. Also a lot of people speak here from English native point of view ... yeah it doesn't matter you don't speak proper grammar when in Spain once in a while or while nomading. It does matter when you're foreigner and want to build a career or be successful in business/society in the said country.
- andrewzah 7y ago
  Glossika (basically a modern pimsleur) is the best app that I've found for practicing a language. If you actually want to learn a language? - find one or three good textbooks and follow them completely with exercises - find a language exchange, but it won't be helpful for speaking until you know 200-300 words and can speak a little. exchanges can be good for making friends, though. they're great for getting feedback on your pronunciation, speaking, etc, but always take things with a grain of salt. native speakers are not always good teachers. - find graded readers or native content that is catered to early, medium, advanced levels, etc. immersion is really important - use Anki for spaced repetition, to memorize vocabulary (that you found from native content like tv shows / books / etc) - make friends thru language exchanges or apps like Hello Talk / Tandem - in general try to get as much input and output as possible. people usually neglect speaking and listening. - finding a weekly tutor can help you iron out personal issues, particularly with pronunciation Doing an app for a few mins a day is never going to teach you a language to a "fluent" degree, despite what marketing they have. Learning a language requires serious study and practice- speaking (and writing, etc) are muscles that you have to train over time by interacting with real people. I don't consider making a few contrived sentences like "my name is X, i do y for a living, where is the bathroom" to be fluent. Not at all. That's called being barely functional. Real fluency depends on your native language and target language, but requires years and years of work. It's not sexy like the idea of using an app and magically becoming "fluent" in a language.
Fnoord 7y ago
Well, I put hours and hours into French in high school (at times, with serious effort) with very little result. My grades for French were awful. Spanish with Duolingo, was at least pleasant. If I watch a series like La Casa de Papel or Orange Is The New Black I understand some words (more than something in French). How would it have been vice versa for me? I will never know.

silicon2401 7y ago

This is a very arbitrary definition of serious effort. I learned one language to the point of being reasonably fluent without ever "drilling". I just listened and spoke in class You also conveniently ignore the countless people (including adults) who reach fluency without even studying, instead just picking it up from immersion: work, media, etc. Duolingo is a specific tool. Like any tool, it's best for specific uses. Your judging its users as "lazy" is both baseless and unhelpful

andrewzah 7y ago
What is "fluent" to you? I highly doubt anyone has ever become fluent in any language from a class. Classes are always behind, and teach textbook variants of a language. Useful, but won't make you "fluent". Immersion is still studying. Digesting actual native material ranges from hard to very difficult (i.e. dramas vs comedy shows, etc). Immersion + studying textbooks is 1000x better than gamified sources like duolingo, particularly for Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Also without knowing your native language and target language, the comparison is not useful. Spanish is quite easy for English speakers; good luck learning Cantonese without studying [for a very long time].
- silicon2401 7y ago
  You come off attached to your existing conclusions: All duolingo users are lazy, and nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class. You're free to believe these things if you want, but it will prevent us from having a constructive discussion. Cheers
  - andrewzah 7y ago
    > All duolingo users are lazy Nope. Not everyone has a lot of time to dedicate to studying a language, which is fine. But duolingo is never going to give you any meaningful fluency. It's like saying "I want to get ripped by only doing body weight exercises for 5 mins/day". If your goal is just to say "Hi my name is X, where is the bathroom", then by all means use duolingo. > nobody can ever become fluent in a language from a class No class will ever teach you everything about a language, partly because there is way too much to teach, and partly because languages change all the time and classes can't keep up. Instead, classes give you a starting point to start reaching fluency, which begins once you start consuming native material and having conversations with real native speakers. Classes don't teach you slang, pop culture, casual expressions, and so on. Fluency is not making simple paragraphs or having a very basic, limited in scope & topic 10 min conversation. Language learning literature and other resources have lowered the bar for what "fluency" is, because nobody can sell a book or other resource by saying "use this book and learn french in 3-5 years". There is a lot of snake oil in this area, but people also want to believe in this notion that they can fluently speak a language with minimal effort.

spectramax 7y ago

Could you please recommend an alternative to Duolingo?

michalu 7y ago
Memrise is better as its more structured. But it's only as a supplement. Duolingo is also a good supplement, not the primary tool. Best to take some class and drill textbooks with fill-in exercises. Then books with short texts on different topics - highlight words, memorize. Then find ways to practice in real life. Yes people say they used Duolingo to being close to fluent, most people who speak very bad grammar and mix tenses but people don't correct them mush as they get the point. So most are unaware. I speak it from first hand experience knowing about 10 people like that.
- dominotw 7y ago
  > Best to take some class and drill textbooks with fill-in exercises. I disagree with your analysis. Most people aren't trying to be speaking super gramatically correct sentences. Most are learning to speak passable sentences. Most important thing while learning a language is to have fun, so you can keep coming back to it. Duolingo makes it fun and interactive. Doing endless grammer textbook excerises /drills takes enormous will power that casual learners don't have.
  - michalu 7y ago
    That was exactly my point. And Duolingo is the perfect tool for such people ... for those who want to master the language and have the will Duolingo will slow you down. Also a lot of people speak here from English native point of view ... yeah it doesn't matter you don't speak proper grammar when in Spain once in a while or while nomading. It does matter when you're foreigner and want to build a career or be successful in business/society in the said country.
andrewzah 7y ago
Glossika (basically a modern pimsleur) is the best app that I've found for practicing a language. If you actually want to learn a language? - find one or three good textbooks and follow them completely with exercises - find a language exchange, but it won't be helpful for speaking until you know 200-300 words and can speak a little. exchanges can be good for making friends, though. they're great for getting feedback on your pronunciation, speaking, etc, but always take things with a grain of salt. native speakers are not always good teachers. - find graded readers or native content that is catered to early, medium, advanced levels, etc. immersion is really important - use Anki for spaced repetition, to memorize vocabulary (that you found from native content like tv shows / books / etc) - make friends thru language exchanges or apps like Hello Talk / Tandem - in general try to get as much input and output as possible. people usually neglect speaking and listening. - finding a weekly tutor can help you iron out personal issues, particularly with pronunciation Doing an app for a few mins a day is never going to teach you a language to a "fluent" degree, despite what marketing they have. Learning a language requires serious study and practice- speaking (and writing, etc) are muscles that you have to train over time by interacting with real people. I don't consider making a few contrived sentences like "my name is X, i do y for a living, where is the bathroom" to be fluent. Not at all. That's called being barely functional. Real fluency depends on your native language and target language, but requires years and years of work. It's not sexy like the idea of using an app and magically becoming "fluent" in a language.

Fnoord 7y ago

Well, I put hours and hours into French in high school (at times, with serious effort) with very little result. My grades for French were awful. Spanish with Duolingo, was at least pleasant. If I watch a series like La Casa de Papel or Orange Is The New Black I understand some words (more than something in French). How would it have been vice versa for me? I will never know.