4 ms·

> Also about telemetry if all power users turn it off then you can have situations where developers will drop a feature because they don't use it and there is n

> Also about telemetry if all power users turn it off then you can have situations where developers will drop a feature because they don't use it and there is no data to show that more then 12 people are using it. Yet another reason not to put telemetry in your software.

simion314 7y ago
Why? So some developers and jerks can claim that you are a snowflake if you used the feature they removed? If there was data at least you can resign that you are really special and you were in a select club but without the data the vocal developer with big ego will claim whatever he wants.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  When something important gets removed (which is happening at an alarmingly increasing pace across the board), it doesn't matter at all to me why the feature was removed. What matters to me is that the software has become less suitable for my use.
mavhc 7y ago
At least they can inform the 12 people that they'll have to support that feature themselves in the future
dwild 7y ago
>Yet another reason not to put telemetry in your software. Can you explain a bit more your way of though? How should you decide what to support if not having the information from your user? The only other alternative is to ask, and then only the one that answer will get supported, which sure is great for the one that answer, but that may means a much bigger audience that you won't support even though they need to be supported.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  > The only other alternative is to ask I see nothing wrong with that.
  - dwild 7y ago
    ... nothing wrong with what followed? Why did you just quote the beginning when I cite a pretty good argument afterward and you don't even argue with it? We are on Hacker News please, be more thorough and defends your point.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      > .. nothing wrong with what followed? Nope. > Why did you just quote the beginning Because the rest can be extrapolated from it. > We are on Hacker News please So? Just because we happen to be on Y Combinator's corporate propaganda machine doesn't mean I'm any more compelled to respond to things about which I care not.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > How should you decide what to support if not having the information from your user? There are many well-known and largely perfected methods of getting that information without the use of telemetry. The thing that general telemetry really brings is cost savings and convenience. But it also brings a peculiar kind of blindness as well, since companies largely stopped doing product research that isn't telemetry.
  - simion314 7y ago
    >There are many well-known and largely perfected methods of getting that information without the use of telemetry. Can you link to a few of this many known methods? I am interested in ones that would fit open source projects that have no budgets for research. Thanks
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      Just look at how product development worked before telemetry was a thing that was possible, and how its done in other industries. This isn't hidden information.
      - simion314 7y ago
        OK, so you have no idea but you speak like you have plenty solutions. What I know of are things like Debian - https://popcon.debian.org https://popcon.debian.org , Ubuntu's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport , Fedora's https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Deployment_Guide/ch-abrt.html https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Deployme...
    - gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
      Telemetry is 100% not a viable fit for an open source project. A very significant proportion of your potential users will either keep it disabled or if that is not possible (which would be illegal in the EU anyway) not use your software. Just ask your users.
      - 7y ago

simion314 7y ago

Why? So some developers and jerks can claim that you are a snowflake if you used the feature they removed? If there was data at least you can resign that you are really special and you were in a select club but without the data the vocal developer with big ego will claim whatever he wants.

JohnFen 7y ago
When something important gets removed (which is happening at an alarmingly increasing pace across the board), it doesn't matter at all to me why the feature was removed. What matters to me is that the software has become less suitable for my use.

mavhc 7y ago

At least they can inform the 12 people that they'll have to support that feature themselves in the future

dwild 7y ago

>Yet another reason not to put telemetry in your software. Can you explain a bit more your way of though? How should you decide what to support if not having the information from your user? The only other alternative is to ask, and then only the one that answer will get supported, which sure is great for the one that answer, but that may means a much bigger audience that you won't support even though they need to be supported.

yellowapple 7y ago
> The only other alternative is to ask I see nothing wrong with that.
- dwild 7y ago
  ... nothing wrong with what followed? Why did you just quote the beginning when I cite a pretty good argument afterward and you don't even argue with it? We are on Hacker News please, be more thorough and defends your point.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    > .. nothing wrong with what followed? Nope. > Why did you just quote the beginning Because the rest can be extrapolated from it. > We are on Hacker News please So? Just because we happen to be on Y Combinator's corporate propaganda machine doesn't mean I'm any more compelled to respond to things about which I care not.
JohnFen 7y ago
> How should you decide what to support if not having the information from your user? There are many well-known and largely perfected methods of getting that information without the use of telemetry. The thing that general telemetry really brings is cost savings and convenience. But it also brings a peculiar kind of blindness as well, since companies largely stopped doing product research that isn't telemetry.
- simion314 7y ago
  >There are many well-known and largely perfected methods of getting that information without the use of telemetry. Can you link to a few of this many known methods? I am interested in ones that would fit open source projects that have no budgets for research. Thanks
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    Just look at how product development worked before telemetry was a thing that was possible, and how its done in other industries. This isn't hidden information.
    - simion314 7y ago
      OK, so you have no idea but you speak like you have plenty solutions. What I know of are things like Debian - https://popcon.debian.org https://popcon.debian.org , Ubuntu's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport , Fedora's https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Deployment_Guide/ch-abrt.html https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Deployme...
  - gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
    Telemetry is 100% not a viable fit for an open source project. A very significant proportion of your potential users will either keep it disabled or if that is not possible (which would be illegal in the EU anyway) not use your software. Just ask your users.
    - 7y ago