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Yeah, I totally get what you're hinting at ;-) I stopped counting the number of times that I clogged American toilets with...let's say "substances that clearly

Yeah, I totally get what you're hinting at ;-) I stopped counting the number of times that I clogged American toilets with...let's say "substances that clearly belong in there". Seriously, am I supposed to hold it in the middle of the action and flush? Another really, really backwards thing seems to be shower fixtures. If you aren't lucky and find a modern mixing valve, you are likely doomed to experiment with various push, pull, turn-while-pull, push-while-turn-then-pull, turn-until-searing-hot-then-go-on-because-warm-comes-after-hot-on-the-scale moves to get a decent water temperature. And not only is this totally unintuitive, it also differs between every single shower in every single hotel or motel room (especially motels seem to have these weird fixtures).

StavrosK 7y ago
And not only that, but every time you turn the water off to soap yourself up, the temperature resets so you have to freeze and burn all over again! Pretty terrible design.
- kube-system 7y ago
  Americans don’t turn the water off in the middle of a shower.
  - mcv 7y ago
    You can save a lot of water that way, though.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      I could, but with water at a penny per gallon, and natural gas at a couple dollars per million BTU, it’s a cheap luxury.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        Funny how dumping carbon into the atmosphere isn't priced in there.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        xur17 7y ago
        I would be interested to know how much addition carbon is used for each heated gallon.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        That's an interesting question, but I think it's a bit moot; we don't have any leeway in the form of amount that's safe to emit. Anything we can save, we should save.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        It would be easiest to figure that out for on-demand hot water heating, if you're talking tank it'd be a bit more complicated. You also have to figure out if electric or gas for the water heater. This site has some good starting figures though https://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters-figures.html https://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters-figures.... >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 110°F: 63° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 20,992 Btus >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 120°F: 73° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 24,324 Btus >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 140°F: 93° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 30,988 Btus Average of 25,435 Btus. 0.000293 kWh/Btu for electric so something like 0.19 kWh per gallon for electric. Looks like 1lb of coal makes about 1kWh (wow!)[1]. 1 pound of carbon combines with 2.667 pounds of oxygen to produce 3.667 pounds of carbon dioxide. So roughly 0.7 pounds or 0.32 kilograms of CO2 per gallon of water in an electric water heater? The average American shower uses 17.2 gallons [2], so if you showered daily and only used hot water your CO2 from showers alone would very roughly be something like 2000kg annually. [1] http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/ctele.htm http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/ctele.htm [2] https://www.home-water-works.org/indoor-use/showers https://www.home-water-works.org/indoor-use/showers
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    I know, but how do you soap up with the water running? You're just wasting soap and water by rinsing it off immediately as you apply it. I've never managed to have a good shower in the US.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      I usually just step out of the stream of water.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        That makes sense but seems wasteful when you can just turn it off and take your time, I guess.
        kube-system 7y ago
        Sometimes I’m not sure how much of our habits can be attributed to cheap utility prices and how much can be attributed to differences in environmental opinion. Either way, this thread reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/oCDW_TSZjVg https://youtu.be/oCDW_TSZjVg
        yostrovs 7y ago
        It's not that wasteful if you consider for much water is used by a toilet flushing after a wizz.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        That's why I let it stew for four or five pees before I flush.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        And for a serious answer, our cisterns usually have two buttons, one which uses 30% of the cistern (for light flushing) and one which uses 100% of it (for heavy flushing). This is only possible in the low-water European toilets, obviously, US-style toilets where the water is already filling the bowl can't do this.
- rlonstein 7y ago
  Most step out of the water and leave it flowing. I install a flow control valve (aka "water saver") behind the shower head which lets you take a "Navy Shower" where you lather up without the water spraying.
mcv 7y ago
Modern thermostat mixer valves are fantastic. I will not tolerate a shower without one and am baffled every time I see a shower without one. They're much easier to use, more comfortable, and it saves water, because you're wasting less time fiddling with the taps and waiting for the right temperature.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Safer too. Especially when you have small kids.
  - mcv 7y ago
    Less so when they get older, though. My son likes to shower with ridiculously hot water.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      That's not without health risks. As a life-long skin problem bearer it's a thing that has messed me up more than once. The upper layers of your skin get de-greased like that and that in turn can cause all kinds of issues. Better get him to understand the possible consequences before there is actual damage from this. Especially during winter the effects can be quite harsh.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  In the spectrum from (what I consider European) thermostatic valves through pressure-balance valves down to simple, static gate valves, the problem is often that retrofitting from one to a better type involves plumbing changes in the wall (necessitating re-tiling in a lot of cases, which cannot be done cheaply to look "never been disturbed"). For a house built in the 60s, it can be a mid-four-figure job all-in just to change the shower valve type. For several grand, I can manually change the valve and adjust it when someone flushes a toilet or runs the hot tap somewhere else.
jwr 7y ago
It took me a long time to discover how some fixtures in hotels work in the US, because the idea that to get hot water you have to open up full-throttle (passing through cold) and there is no way to control the amount of water was totally alien to me. I never expected such a wasteful design.
- Slartie 7y ago
  Yeah, those are the greatest. Sometimes, if you're lucky, you can pull on the fixture to control the flow rate, but on others you are basically limited to full throttle if you don't want to shower with cold water only.
- yibg 7y ago
  Worst ones are (although not limited to America) ones where you have to reach under the water flow to get to the control. Eg the knobs are on the inside wall of the shower facing the entrance. So to turn on the water you have to reach your arm and sometimes half the body across the shower. Then you have to turn the bloody thing past cold full blast, with the cold water coming down on you. And to add to it, you can’t really tell where you set the temperature to unless you feel the water. If the temperature is wrong you have to reach through the water stream again to change it. Annoying if you set it too cold, good luck if you set it too hot. Who designs these things?
rsynnott 7y ago
Yeah, this is something that I'm vaguely surprised by every time I'm in the US; the thermostatic mixing valve seems to be considered magical future technology. They definitely _exist_ there, but you tend not to find them in hotels.

StavrosK 7y ago

And not only that, but every time you turn the water off to soap yourself up, the temperature resets so you have to freeze and burn all over again! Pretty terrible design.

kube-system 7y ago
Americans don’t turn the water off in the middle of a shower.
- mcv 7y ago
  You can save a lot of water that way, though.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I could, but with water at a penny per gallon, and natural gas at a couple dollars per million BTU, it’s a cheap luxury.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      Funny how dumping carbon into the atmosphere isn't priced in there.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - xur17 7y ago
        I would be interested to know how much addition carbon is used for each heated gallon.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        That's an interesting question, but I think it's a bit moot; we don't have any leeway in the form of amount that's safe to emit. Anything we can save, we should save.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        It would be easiest to figure that out for on-demand hot water heating, if you're talking tank it'd be a bit more complicated. You also have to figure out if electric or gas for the water heater. This site has some good starting figures though https://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters-figures.html https://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters-figures.... >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 110°F: 63° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 20,992 Btus >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 120°F: 73° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 24,324 Btus >Groundwater 47°F, Heater set to 140°F: 93° rise x 8.33 Btu x 40 gallons = 30,988 Btus Average of 25,435 Btus. 0.000293 kWh/Btu for electric so something like 0.19 kWh per gallon for electric. Looks like 1lb of coal makes about 1kWh (wow!)[1]. 1 pound of carbon combines with 2.667 pounds of oxygen to produce 3.667 pounds of carbon dioxide. So roughly 0.7 pounds or 0.32 kilograms of CO2 per gallon of water in an electric water heater? The average American shower uses 17.2 gallons [2], so if you showered daily and only used hot water your CO2 from showers alone would very roughly be something like 2000kg annually. [1] http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/ctele.htm http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/ctele.htm [2] https://www.home-water-works.org/indoor-use/showers https://www.home-water-works.org/indoor-use/showers
- StavrosK 7y ago
  I know, but how do you soap up with the water running? You're just wasting soap and water by rinsing it off immediately as you apply it. I've never managed to have a good shower in the US.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I usually just step out of the stream of water.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      That makes sense but seems wasteful when you can just turn it off and take your time, I guess.
      - kube-system 7y ago
        Sometimes I’m not sure how much of our habits can be attributed to cheap utility prices and how much can be attributed to differences in environmental opinion. Either way, this thread reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/oCDW_TSZjVg https://youtu.be/oCDW_TSZjVg
      - yostrovs 7y ago
        It's not that wasteful if you consider for much water is used by a toilet flushing after a wizz.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        That's why I let it stew for four or five pees before I flush.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        And for a serious answer, our cisterns usually have two buttons, one which uses 30% of the cistern (for light flushing) and one which uses 100% of it (for heavy flushing). This is only possible in the low-water European toilets, obviously, US-style toilets where the water is already filling the bowl can't do this.
rlonstein 7y ago
Most step out of the water and leave it flowing. I install a flow control valve (aka "water saver") behind the shower head which lets you take a "Navy Shower" where you lather up without the water spraying.

mcv 7y ago

Modern thermostat mixer valves are fantastic. I will not tolerate a shower without one and am baffled every time I see a shower without one. They're much easier to use, more comfortable, and it saves water, because you're wasting less time fiddling with the taps and waiting for the right temperature.

jacquesm 7y ago
Safer too. Especially when you have small kids.
- mcv 7y ago
  Less so when they get older, though. My son likes to shower with ridiculously hot water.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    That's not without health risks. As a life-long skin problem bearer it's a thing that has messed me up more than once. The upper layers of your skin get de-greased like that and that in turn can cause all kinds of issues. Better get him to understand the possible consequences before there is actual damage from this. Especially during winter the effects can be quite harsh.
sokoloff 7y ago
In the spectrum from (what I consider European) thermostatic valves through pressure-balance valves down to simple, static gate valves, the problem is often that retrofitting from one to a better type involves plumbing changes in the wall (necessitating re-tiling in a lot of cases, which cannot be done cheaply to look "never been disturbed"). For a house built in the 60s, it can be a mid-four-figure job all-in just to change the shower valve type. For several grand, I can manually change the valve and adjust it when someone flushes a toilet or runs the hot tap somewhere else.

jwr 7y ago

It took me a long time to discover how some fixtures in hotels work in the US, because the idea that to get hot water you have to open up full-throttle (passing through cold) and there is no way to control the amount of water was totally alien to me. I never expected such a wasteful design.

Slartie 7y ago
Yeah, those are the greatest. Sometimes, if you're lucky, you can pull on the fixture to control the flow rate, but on others you are basically limited to full throttle if you don't want to shower with cold water only.
yibg 7y ago
Worst ones are (although not limited to America) ones where you have to reach under the water flow to get to the control. Eg the knobs are on the inside wall of the shower facing the entrance. So to turn on the water you have to reach your arm and sometimes half the body across the shower. Then you have to turn the bloody thing past cold full blast, with the cold water coming down on you. And to add to it, you can’t really tell where you set the temperature to unless you feel the water. If the temperature is wrong you have to reach through the water stream again to change it. Annoying if you set it too cold, good luck if you set it too hot. Who designs these things?

rsynnott 7y ago

Yeah, this is something that I'm vaguely surprised by every time I'm in the US; the thermostatic mixing valve seems to be considered magical future technology. They definitely _exist_ there, but you tend not to find them in hotels.