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I remember reading an argument about Bernie Madoff: he'll spend the rest of his life in jail, but nobody can take away the 20 years when he was king of the worl

I remember reading an argument about Bernie Madoff: he'll spend the rest of his life in jail, but nobody can take away the 20 years when he was king of the world. Holmes got half that. I wonder if they were worth it, or if she spent them dreading being found out.

abtinf 7y ago
Madoff has stated he is happier in jail than he was before he got caught. He was never king of anything. Living a life in which you lie to everyone you meet-your family, children, friends, and clients-is not conducive to happiness. He constantly had to be vigilant about getting caught. His own son turned him in, and later committed suicide. Lying is not selfish, but deeply self-destructive.
- everybodyknows 7y ago
  I recall reading that in the prison social hierarchy, Bernie has very high status. His fraud is esteemed as a great achievement.
  - Twixes 7y ago
    Well, I don't think anyone in the prison has pulled off a heist as big as his.
- mnemonicsloth 7y ago
  But he lied so well, for so long. He wouldn't have gotten as far as he did without knowing how to tell people what they want to hear. And this is what we want to hear. No heart of darkness, just... a mistake. Oops. He promises he won't do it again...
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I think deep down it’s not enjoyable to be on top while knowing that there is a very good chance that you will be found out. I think is a very stressful experience.
- amiga_500 7y ago
  These people are not normal Imagine you defraud someone of 10 million. Then you think 'no, I want more'. I cannot put myself in their shoes, but I would like their shoes to go to jail for a long time. Financial fraud should be treated like robbery.
  - okareaman 7y ago
    1% of people are psychopaths, according to internet surveys. I don't know how accurate they are, but assuming they are in the ballpark, I can imagine Madoff doing all of this and sleep good at night if he lacked all empathy.
- c3534l 7y ago
  If you had that kind of guilt and worry, you wouldn't put yourself in that position to begin with. These people don't have the same kind of emotional reaction you and I have. From my experience with people in a similar psychological category, this kind of quasi-fearlessness is viewed as a super power from which the person is able to manipulate those around them to get the outcomes they want. They're not process-oriented people, they're rats in a Skinner box pressing down the lever that gives them their food pellets. If they feel stress, their lack of moral qualms only makes the sensation feel exhilarating, like a roller coaster or an action-packed video game.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  See also: The Sword of Damocles, "uneasy lies the head that wears a crown", etc.
jessedhillon 7y ago
This analysis diminishes certain facts of the Madoff case. Madoff's son killed himself due to stress related to the fallout from the scandal, meanwhile strongly denying involvement the whole time. Moreover, Bernard himself will die in jail. So in fact, I think the reverse is true: he would trade 100 years of glory to have even a day back with his son. And even if he doesn't have remorse for the scheme itself, I can't imagine he sleeps well knowing that his crimes directly led to his son taking his own life. Maybe I'm ascribing too much humanity to him, but I have to imagine he lives in, or very near to, hell.
bhouston 7y ago
Bernie Madoff had a family and was found out when he was I believe 70. Holmes is in the prime of her life. Holmes has most of her life to lose, where as Bernie spend the large majority of his living large.
- mnemonicsloth 7y ago
  The maximum sentence the DOJ is asking for in Holmes's case is 20 years. She may well deserve it, (if she caused sick people to die or get sicker) but she'll probably get less. In the worst case (for her) she'd be 55 when she got out of prison. Everyone will have forgotten about her by then. She may think that's the same as being forgiven.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mmmBacon 7y ago
    I highly doubt that she’ll serve 20 years. I’d be surprised if she received even 10% of such a sentence and her time served is likely to be a good deal less.
- buryat 7y ago
  Moreover, Bernie Madoff family all tragically dissolved: both of his sons died (one committed suicide and the other one died of cancer), his wife was stripped of all the life she had built, the rest of family disowned him. He caused distress to many investors and caused lots of devastation that shouldn't be praised and explained. The man acted for himself, out of egoistic tendencies, and that's not something I'd consider as living large.
RickJWagner 7y ago
All the fond memories of things I've done in the past don't provide me much comfort when I'm really down in the dumps. I expect the same holds true for Madoff, Holmes, etc.
RantyDave 7y ago
I think Holmes thought she could wing it until what they were promising was possible. Not a bad plan, it just ... didn't really work out.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I wonder what she was really thinking. When I read the book “Bad Blood” I got the impression that she was mainly concerned about covering up and keeping up impressions and wasn’t even involved in the actual technology.
- tenpies 7y ago
  Isn't there a name for the idea that every visionary and every fraudster is basically the same person? There has to be a parallel universe where Holmes got more money pumped into her company, got regulators to ignore her company despite causing deaths, got away with incredibly shady marketing, purchased bankrupt companies owned by family members against her fiduciary duty, and then - through sheer hype and money spent - managed to produce a viable product or at least advance the technology enough to be a net contribution to humanity. In this universe, that person is Musk instead of Holmes, but they are fundamentally the same archetype and the same story.
  - RantyDave 7y ago
    Yes! Exactly! Jobs without Woz.
  - Reedx 7y ago
    Thomas Edison did this with the incandescent light bulb. He claimed he had it working long before he actually did. Holmes was doing the same thing. Indeed, she often referenced Edison's quote about having to fail 10,000 times. And named their machine the Edison. Theranos was paying the salary of ~800 employees. They were trying to make it work (though by all accounts were given an ultimately impossible task). It seems likely she was a true believer and had convinced herself it was possible. Ignoring the problems and base reality. Also having convinced herself that it was for the greater good. "We're going to save lives. No one has to die too young, like my uncle did". In the meantime, pretended that it works. Fake it till you make it. Elon isn't really doing that though, given the results he's shown many times over. It helps that he's an engineer operating from first principles and has a physics-based mindset. I think the reality bending he does is more in the realm of expectation and time. Hence unrealistic estimates. But they're things that are ultimately doable and tend to get done.
ada1981 7y ago
A life where you’ve never been able to experience what it’s like to be authentic and honest and loved for who you are. I personally can’t imagine the past to be a comfort for a present where you are so deeply disconnected from your self. Of course, if you’ve never known it, you might not miss it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
onetimemanytime 7y ago
The argument would make sense if you let your family secured, while you accepted the trade-off of living like a king for a while, but taking one for the family. Maddoff's family was destroyed and probably will end changing their name. Had he robbed a bank, it would be different, he screwed a lot of people with sad stories. As for Holmes, she hasn't even started yet.

abtinf 7y ago

Madoff has stated he is happier in jail than he was before he got caught. He was never king of anything. Living a life in which you lie to everyone you meet-your family, children, friends, and clients-is not conducive to happiness. He constantly had to be vigilant about getting caught. His own son turned him in, and later committed suicide. Lying is not selfish, but deeply self-destructive.

everybodyknows 7y ago
I recall reading that in the prison social hierarchy, Bernie has very high status. His fraud is esteemed as a great achievement.
- Twixes 7y ago
  Well, I don't think anyone in the prison has pulled off a heist as big as his.
mnemonicsloth 7y ago
But he lied so well, for so long. He wouldn't have gotten as far as he did without knowing how to tell people what they want to hear. And this is what we want to hear. No heart of darkness, just... a mistake. Oops. He promises he won't do it again...

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I think deep down it’s not enjoyable to be on top while knowing that there is a very good chance that you will be found out. I think is a very stressful experience.

amiga_500 7y ago
These people are not normal Imagine you defraud someone of 10 million. Then you think 'no, I want more'. I cannot put myself in their shoes, but I would like their shoes to go to jail for a long time. Financial fraud should be treated like robbery.
- okareaman 7y ago
  1% of people are psychopaths, according to internet surveys. I don't know how accurate they are, but assuming they are in the ballpark, I can imagine Madoff doing all of this and sleep good at night if he lacked all empathy.
c3534l 7y ago
If you had that kind of guilt and worry, you wouldn't put yourself in that position to begin with. These people don't have the same kind of emotional reaction you and I have. From my experience with people in a similar psychological category, this kind of quasi-fearlessness is viewed as a super power from which the person is able to manipulate those around them to get the outcomes they want. They're not process-oriented people, they're rats in a Skinner box pressing down the lever that gives them their food pellets. If they feel stress, their lack of moral qualms only makes the sensation feel exhilarating, like a roller coaster or an action-packed video game.
blaser-waffle 7y ago
See also: The Sword of Damocles, "uneasy lies the head that wears a crown", etc.

jessedhillon 7y ago

This analysis diminishes certain facts of the Madoff case. Madoff's son killed himself due to stress related to the fallout from the scandal, meanwhile strongly denying involvement the whole time. Moreover, Bernard himself will die in jail. So in fact, I think the reverse is true: he would trade 100 years of glory to have even a day back with his son. And even if he doesn't have remorse for the scheme itself, I can't imagine he sleeps well knowing that his crimes directly led to his son taking his own life. Maybe I'm ascribing too much humanity to him, but I have to imagine he lives in, or very near to, hell.

bhouston 7y ago

Bernie Madoff had a family and was found out when he was I believe 70. Holmes is in the prime of her life. Holmes has most of her life to lose, where as Bernie spend the large majority of his living large.

mnemonicsloth 7y ago
The maximum sentence the DOJ is asking for in Holmes's case is 20 years. She may well deserve it, (if she caused sick people to die or get sicker) but she'll probably get less. In the worst case (for her) she'd be 55 when she got out of prison. Everyone will have forgotten about her by then. She may think that's the same as being forgiven.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mmmBacon 7y ago
  I highly doubt that she’ll serve 20 years. I’d be surprised if she received even 10% of such a sentence and her time served is likely to be a good deal less.
buryat 7y ago
Moreover, Bernie Madoff family all tragically dissolved: both of his sons died (one committed suicide and the other one died of cancer), his wife was stripped of all the life she had built, the rest of family disowned him. He caused distress to many investors and caused lots of devastation that shouldn't be praised and explained. The man acted for himself, out of egoistic tendencies, and that's not something I'd consider as living large.

RickJWagner 7y ago

All the fond memories of things I've done in the past don't provide me much comfort when I'm really down in the dumps. I expect the same holds true for Madoff, Holmes, etc.

RantyDave 7y ago

I think Holmes thought she could wing it until what they were promising was possible. Not a bad plan, it just ... didn't really work out.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I wonder what she was really thinking. When I read the book “Bad Blood” I got the impression that she was mainly concerned about covering up and keeping up impressions and wasn’t even involved in the actual technology.
tenpies 7y ago
Isn't there a name for the idea that every visionary and every fraudster is basically the same person? There has to be a parallel universe where Holmes got more money pumped into her company, got regulators to ignore her company despite causing deaths, got away with incredibly shady marketing, purchased bankrupt companies owned by family members against her fiduciary duty, and then - through sheer hype and money spent - managed to produce a viable product or at least advance the technology enough to be a net contribution to humanity. In this universe, that person is Musk instead of Holmes, but they are fundamentally the same archetype and the same story.
- RantyDave 7y ago
  Yes! Exactly! Jobs without Woz.
- Reedx 7y ago
  Thomas Edison did this with the incandescent light bulb. He claimed he had it working long before he actually did. Holmes was doing the same thing. Indeed, she often referenced Edison's quote about having to fail 10,000 times. And named their machine the Edison. Theranos was paying the salary of ~800 employees. They were trying to make it work (though by all accounts were given an ultimately impossible task). It seems likely she was a true believer and had convinced herself it was possible. Ignoring the problems and base reality. Also having convinced herself that it was for the greater good. "We're going to save lives. No one has to die too young, like my uncle did". In the meantime, pretended that it works. Fake it till you make it. Elon isn't really doing that though, given the results he's shown many times over. It helps that he's an engineer operating from first principles and has a physics-based mindset. I think the reality bending he does is more in the realm of expectation and time. Hence unrealistic estimates. But they're things that are ultimately doable and tend to get done.

ada1981 7y ago

A life where you’ve never been able to experience what it’s like to be authentic and honest and loved for who you are. I personally can’t imagine the past to be a comfort for a present where you are so deeply disconnected from your self. Of course, if you’ve never known it, you might not miss it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

onetimemanytime 7y ago

The argument would make sense if you let your family secured, while you accepted the trade-off of living like a king for a while, but taking one for the family. Maddoff's family was destroyed and probably will end changing their name. Had he robbed a bank, it would be different, he screwed a lot of people with sad stories. As for Holmes, she hasn't even started yet.