4 ms·

Why are choppers always crashing? (2009)

30 points by mmhsieh 7y ago

torstenvl 7y ago
The thing is, helicopters are different from airplanes. An airplane by its nature wants to fly and, if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in the delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying, immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. This is why a helicopter pilot is so different a being from an airplane pilot, and why in general, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts, and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if anything bad has not happened, it is about to. Harry Reasoner, Approach magazine, November 1973 As quoted at https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flights-and-fancy-brooders-vs-extroverts-36056567/ https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flights-and-fancy-b...
- badrabbit 7y ago
  Makes me wonder what Orintocopter pilots are like.
- quietbritishjim 7y ago
  > There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. There is such a thing (very approximately but good enough for this discussion): autorotation. It allows a helicopter to be flown when the engine cuts out, but it does still require a great deal of manual control (from what little I understand of it). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation
  - edoceo 7y ago
    That requires many other parts of the vehicle to still operate. It's a rare scenario where, when things are going wrong, it's so limited. Like, once the engine is out, many other pumps and dynamos and electrics also break.
    - mmhsieh 7y ago
      the bimodal outcomes of a chopper ride give me pause.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    It's really not that hard to autorotate, you do it at hour 8 in training. The problem with helicopters is that people fly them close to the ground and other obstacles. CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) is a leading cause of crashes, as is flying VFR rated in IMC due to poor weather understanding and processes. Mechanical failures are max 25% of accidents, and 75% of those are due to engine failure alone, and hence autorotation is an option -- if you are high enough and have planned your route well. You can autorotate at fairly low altitude, but it depends on your forward airspeed, rotor inertia, etc, which is situation and model specific. http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html
    - aeternum 7y ago
      > It's really not that hard to autorotate, you do it at hour 8 in training. Few students do full down autorotations, and no one does engine-off autorotations. Instructors also don't just roll the power off when students are not expecting it, as that would be far too dangerous. Successful autorotation in a real emergency means the pilot has to execute a difficult maneuver in conditions they've never before experienced.
      - angry_octet 7y ago
        This is a pointless hair splitting. Like all truly dire emergencies, it can be trained for but not actually done. They do it in simulation under a number of stressful conditions, such as during a complicated maneuver or another failure.
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  Reasoner's first paragraph is largely correct. Autorotation only works above 500' AGL, and not at all if the rotor system is damaged or seized. The San Jose police lost a chopper 20 years ago. Even though they autorotated, the avoidance of houses and landing on pavement killed both occupants. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/2-Killed-As-Police-Helicopter-Crashes-on-San-Jose-2900622.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/2-Killed-As-Police-He... Even today, most helicopter operations are VFR. If the clouds come down, even EMT flights don't fly IFR and they impact terrain weekly. The second paragraph of amateur psychology is not correct. Most US helicopter pilots first get a fixed-wing (airplane) rating then get the helicopter add-on, since it's cheaper that way. However, if I was a North Sea oil platform helo pilot, yeah I'd be grim af every day too. Not mentioned is that because of weight limitations in aerospace engineering, helicopters just don't have the design margin available for adequate safety. The #1 helicopter mfg. in the world is Robinson Helicopter in SoCal. The only way they stayed in business was to be bastards on mfg. processes (in-housing it similar to SpaceX) and training requirements. The tail rotor axle looks like a Christmas wrapping paper tube. FAA SFAR-73: Robinson R-22/R-44 Special Training and Experience Requirements http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ In addition, as we've found out with Hawaiian helo tours, the popout floats just don't work in the ocean, so it capsizes. In case you haven't noticed, I love picking on helicopters! :) Source: commercially-rated pilot.
- jinushaun 7y ago
  I learned this lesson during a cheap intro flying course. The instructor even landed the plane with the engines off to prove the point: Planes naturally fly!
- clSTophEjUdRanu 7y ago
  I've said this on Reddit and got a shitload of replies that I'm full of shit and choppers can auto-rotate or something to keep from crashing.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
comex 7y ago
(2009)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mgarfias 7y ago
Cuz they are spawned by the devil, and held in the air by something called a jesus nut.
fctorial 7y ago
Chopper in fs98 was impossibly difficult to fly. I never got it to hover for more than 5 secs. It was like balancing a bead on an inverted bowl. They replaced the bowl with a flat surface in later versions. Don't know if real ones are just as hard.
mikhailfranco 7y ago
It seems that more special forces get killed in helicopters than in ground combat. The crashes may be due to malfunction, or extremely bad weather, but also because the helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire as they go to reinforce or evacuate men from combat. US SEALS in Afghanistan: https://www.history.com/news/the-costliest-day-in-seal-team-six-history https://www.history.com/news/the-costliest-day-in-seal-team-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takur_Ghar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takur_Ghar (Roberts Ridge) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Wings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Wings British SAS/SBS in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Falklands War: https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/775565/harrys-five-sas-pals-killed-in-chopper-crash/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/775565/harrys-five-sa... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6044194/Two-SAS-soldiers-died-in-Iraq-helicopter-crash-because-of-notoriously-bad-radios.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6044194/Two-... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454382/For-time-25-years-fomer-SAS-man-tells-Falklands-tragedy-killed-20.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454382/For-time-25-... Coalition forces in Iraq: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/helicopter-crash-takes-british-fatalities-to-14-112031.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/helicop... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/iraq.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/iraq.uk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Al-Anbar_CH-53E_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Al-Anbar_CH-53E_crash https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/16/594168056/7-killed-in-u-s-military-helicopter-crash-in-iraq https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/16/594168056... Australian SAS in training: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-11/survivor-remembers-1996-black-hawk-tragedy/7497914 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-11/survivor-remembers-19... One famous example from the Falklands War, where two helicopters crashed in a blizzard on a glacier, but was redeemed by a tremendous feat of airmanship by the pilot of the third helicopter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#Reconnaissance_phase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#Reconnaissa...

30 points by mmhsieh 7y ago

The thing is, helicopters are different from airplanes. An airplane by its nature wants to fly and, if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in the delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying, immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. This is why a helicopter pilot is so different a being from an airplane pilot, and why in general, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts, and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if anything bad has not happened, it is about to. Harry Reasoner, Approach magazine, November 1973 As quoted at https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flights-and-fancy-brooders-vs-extroverts-36056567/ https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flights-and-fancy-b...

badrabbit 7y ago
Makes me wonder what Orintocopter pilots are like.
quietbritishjim 7y ago
> There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. There is such a thing (very approximately but good enough for this discussion): autorotation. It allows a helicopter to be flown when the engine cuts out, but it does still require a great deal of manual control (from what little I understand of it). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation
- edoceo 7y ago
  That requires many other parts of the vehicle to still operate. It's a rare scenario where, when things are going wrong, it's so limited. Like, once the engine is out, many other pumps and dynamos and electrics also break.
  - mmhsieh 7y ago
    the bimodal outcomes of a chopper ride give me pause.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  It's really not that hard to autorotate, you do it at hour 8 in training. The problem with helicopters is that people fly them close to the ground and other obstacles. CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) is a leading cause of crashes, as is flying VFR rated in IMC due to poor weather understanding and processes. Mechanical failures are max 25% of accidents, and 75% of those are due to engine failure alone, and hence autorotation is an option -- if you are high enough and have planned your route well. You can autorotate at fairly low altitude, but it depends on your forward airspeed, rotor inertia, etc, which is situation and model specific. http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html
  - aeternum 7y ago
    > It's really not that hard to autorotate, you do it at hour 8 in training. Few students do full down autorotations, and no one does engine-off autorotations. Instructors also don't just roll the power off when students are not expecting it, as that would be far too dangerous. Successful autorotation in a real emergency means the pilot has to execute a difficult maneuver in conditions they've never before experienced.
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      This is a pointless hair splitting. Like all truly dire emergencies, it can be trained for but not actually done. They do it in simulation under a number of stressful conditions, such as during a complicated maneuver or another failure.
redis_mlc 7y ago
Reasoner's first paragraph is largely correct. Autorotation only works above 500' AGL, and not at all if the rotor system is damaged or seized. The San Jose police lost a chopper 20 years ago. Even though they autorotated, the avoidance of houses and landing on pavement killed both occupants. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/2-Killed-As-Police-Helicopter-Crashes-on-San-Jose-2900622.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/2-Killed-As-Police-He... Even today, most helicopter operations are VFR. If the clouds come down, even EMT flights don't fly IFR and they impact terrain weekly. The second paragraph of amateur psychology is not correct. Most US helicopter pilots first get a fixed-wing (airplane) rating then get the helicopter add-on, since it's cheaper that way. However, if I was a North Sea oil platform helo pilot, yeah I'd be grim af every day too. Not mentioned is that because of weight limitations in aerospace engineering, helicopters just don't have the design margin available for adequate safety. The #1 helicopter mfg. in the world is Robinson Helicopter in SoCal. The only way they stayed in business was to be bastards on mfg. processes (in-housing it similar to SpaceX) and training requirements. The tail rotor axle looks like a Christmas wrapping paper tube. FAA SFAR-73: Robinson R-22/R-44 Special Training and Experience Requirements http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ In addition, as we've found out with Hawaiian helo tours, the popout floats just don't work in the ocean, so it capsizes. In case you haven't noticed, I love picking on helicopters! :) Source: commercially-rated pilot.
jinushaun 7y ago
I learned this lesson during a cheap intro flying course. The instructor even landed the plane with the engines off to prove the point: Planes naturally fly!
clSTophEjUdRanu 7y ago
I've said this on Reddit and got a shitload of replies that I'm full of shit and choppers can auto-rotate or something to keep from crashing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

comex 7y ago

(2009)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

mgarfias 7y ago

Cuz they are spawned by the devil, and held in the air by something called a jesus nut.

fctorial 7y ago

Chopper in fs98 was impossibly difficult to fly. I never got it to hover for more than 5 secs. It was like balancing a bead on an inverted bowl. They replaced the bowl with a flat surface in later versions. Don't know if real ones are just as hard.

mikhailfranco 7y ago

It seems that more special forces get killed in helicopters than in ground combat. The crashes may be due to malfunction, or extremely bad weather, but also because the helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire as they go to reinforce or evacuate men from combat. US SEALS in Afghanistan: https://www.history.com/news/the-costliest-day-in-seal-team-six-history https://www.history.com/news/the-costliest-day-in-seal-team-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takur_Ghar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takur_Ghar (Roberts Ridge) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Wings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Wings British SAS/SBS in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Falklands War: https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/775565/harrys-five-sas-pals-killed-in-chopper-crash/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/775565/harrys-five-sa... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6044194/Two-SAS-soldiers-died-in-Iraq-helicopter-crash-because-of-notoriously-bad-radios.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6044194/Two-... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454382/For-time-25-years-fomer-SAS-man-tells-Falklands-tragedy-killed-20.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454382/For-time-25-... Coalition forces in Iraq: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/helicopter-crash-takes-british-fatalities-to-14-112031.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/helicop... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/iraq.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/iraq.uk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Al-Anbar_CH-53E_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Al-Anbar_CH-53E_crash https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/16/594168056/7-killed-in-u-s-military-helicopter-crash-in-iraq https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/16/594168056... Australian SAS in training: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-11/survivor-remembers-1996-black-hawk-tragedy/7497914 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-11/survivor-remembers-19... One famous example from the Falklands War, where two helicopters crashed in a blizzard on a glacier, but was redeemed by a tremendous feat of airmanship by the pilot of the third helicopter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#Reconnaissance_phase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#Reconnaissa...