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Leaving the car was probably not a good idea. The ones who left the car were lucky to be found alive. I still remember this story where the husband left the ca

by graton 7y ago

Leaving the car was probably not a good idea. The ones who left the car were lucky to be found alive. I still remember this story where the husband left the car to find help. https://www.oregonlive.com/oregonianextra/2007/11/kimfamily.html https://www.oregonlive.com/oregonianextra/2007/11/kimfamily.... It is possible to survive a pretty long time in a car as it provides the shelter you need. From the article: The Kim family -- parents James and Kati and children Penelope, 4, and Sabine, 7 months -- disappeared Nov. 25, 2006 as they drove to Gold Beach from Merlin, just north of Grants Pass off Interstate 5. Kati Kim, 30, and her daughters were found Dec. 4 with the car after being stuck in the snow for nine days with few supplies. James Kim, 35, was found dead two days later in a creek. He had walked more than 16 miles in the cold and snow in a futile effort to get help.

astrodust 7y ago
They always find the car first, especially if it's going to be visible from the air. There's just too many stories of people who decided to leave just before the car was found, and then they were found dead some short distance away due to under-estimating how hard it would be to travel.
- mjevans 7y ago
  That's the key for S&R, make it easy to spot from the air, and know it's NEW stuff rather than old. Stay near the car, make obvious signs pointing to the car.
tzs 7y ago
On the other hand, there was Jerry William McDonald who got stranded a few years after the Kim family, also in Oregon [1]. He did stay with the car, and died of starvation and/or hypothermia after 70 days in the car. At some point trying to walk out, as bad as that is, gives you a better overall chance of surviving than waiting for rescue. The trick is figuring out when that is. I've heard of only one incident where the stranded people had no trouble with making that decision. They were stranded in a well stocked RV, in a place they knew they were very likely to be found except by a search party specifically looking for them. They had satellite radio and TV, and so were able to watch the news reports about the search, and see when the search was called off, and so it was now either walk out or try to survive the entire winter there. They successfully had someone walk out. [1] https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2011/05/man_found_dead_in_truck_after_getting_stuck_in_snow_spending_nearly_70_days_in_remote_linn_county.html https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2011/05/ma...
- watersb 7y ago
  ^likely^unlikely Thanks for this story. I wonder what I would do.
- mike_d 7y ago
  I used to do Search and Rescue and I can absolutely tell you in all cases the best thing to do when lost is to stay put. Unless you are in immediate danger, or can move to a high point to get a cell signal but remain within visual range of your car/tent/etc. don't leave. SAR teams only have the resources to search a relatively small area (dozens of square miles at most), so if you start wandering off from your point last known (which we determine based on interviews with people with knowledge of your plans, tire tracks, open gates, cell phone pings, and other clues) you are removing yourself from the area where professional searchers and first responders are looking for you. Your time should be spent trying to create a signal. Make a small fire that you can keep under control and burn rubber/plastic to create dark smoke. Lay out reflective materials. Whistle, clap, or yell every 15 minutes. Keep listening for rescuers calling out.
  - daveFNbuck 7y ago
    Your justification assumes you're being searched for. If you learn that the search has been called off, is it still always better to stay put?
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      A generic signal like smoke could work even when explicit search is called off. In this specific case, broken down car has gasoline and battery and even good fuel source (foams will a lot of smoke and thanks to fire retardant will burn long), making a fire is quite trivial with such means.
glofish 7y ago
James Kim was one of the early online streamer personalities, ran CNET product reviews watchable over the web but also via TiVo and other similar devices. I remember how surreal it was to hear his fate.
- jarcoal 7y ago
  Indeed. I remember watching him on Fresh Gear, which aired on ZDTV (later became TechTV).
mongol 7y ago
Or this story from Sweden "A Swedish man has survived being trapped in his snow-covered car for two months without food" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17088173 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17088173
- anonsivalley652 7y ago
  That works with clean water. Most people can go a few days to a week without water ("3 days" is an oft-quoted factoid), but that's about it. Having water, survival without food is hard limited on a person's body fat and their metabolic rate. For example, I have 80 lbs / 36 kg of sacrificial body mass. Assume extracting 3400 kcal/lbs of fat and a 2000 kcal/day RMR (let's call it 2500 because of activity). That works out to ~109 days / ~3.5 months of survival. IANAD: Also helpful to prevent death & long-term damage would be: - electrolytes and minerals (Na, K, Mg, Ca, Fe) - vitamins (c, b12, a, b-complex, e, k, d) - small quantities of lipids to empty the gallbladder to prevent gallstones. To accomplish this, a six-month supply of multivitamins, a dried electrolyte mix and a large bottle of shelf-stable oil would be the bare-minimum. (Do the rationing math ahead-of-time so that you don't die.) Even better would be to avoid this scenario altogether: - carry a properly-registered GPS PLB ($250-400 USD) with a maintained battery (I saw one model of PLB lasted 5 years, after which it needed replacement at a dealer for an unspecified cost. It also has a hard limit on the number of self tests that can be performed without a battery replacement service. This is exactly why we need the right-to-repair. I came across a PLB with an user-replaceable battery, but it's $1000 USD and the batteries cost $175 USD (when it costs about $15 to make), so clearly the PLB business-model is a razor-blade/inkjet-printer economy that is all about planned-obsolescence and lock-in.) - a signaling mirror (with aiming hole) - a multi-chamber, insanely-loud, rescue whistle
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Don't forget about: - source of fire - waterproof (perhaps also fireproof and thermal) blanket. - sharp long shovel - knife - rope The lower down the list, the more optional it is.
dorfsmay 7y ago
Another learning from this story is that SMS (cell phone text message) can get through even when you think you don't have reception, and based on the weather. Also phones will keep trying to send them until they can. So it's always worth sending a text for help with your exact coordinate.
- cjrp 7y ago
  Also, calling emergency services will use any available network, so even if your normal provider has no coverage your call might still get through if you're within range of a competitor's tower.
- pacerwpg 7y ago
  That is true, but the cell reception is abysmal in that area. I drive out there frequently and do not have cell reception 10-15 km closer to the tower than where they presumptively were.
sillysaurusx 7y ago
It wasn't necessarily that he left the car, but that he crossed a creek. Once you touch water in winter, you're in big trouble. It's good to stay sheltered if help is coming. But at the time, I remember people saying that rescuers found the car thanks to finding Kim's footprints.

by graton 7y ago

astrodust 7y ago

They always find the car first, especially if it's going to be visible from the air. There's just too many stories of people who decided to leave just before the car was found, and then they were found dead some short distance away due to under-estimating how hard it would be to travel.

mjevans 7y ago
That's the key for S&R, make it easy to spot from the air, and know it's NEW stuff rather than old. Stay near the car, make obvious signs pointing to the car.

tzs 7y ago

On the other hand, there was Jerry William McDonald who got stranded a few years after the Kim family, also in Oregon [1]. He did stay with the car, and died of starvation and/or hypothermia after 70 days in the car. At some point trying to walk out, as bad as that is, gives you a better overall chance of surviving than waiting for rescue. The trick is figuring out when that is. I've heard of only one incident where the stranded people had no trouble with making that decision. They were stranded in a well stocked RV, in a place they knew they were very likely to be found except by a search party specifically looking for them. They had satellite radio and TV, and so were able to watch the news reports about the search, and see when the search was called off, and so it was now either walk out or try to survive the entire winter there. They successfully had someone walk out. [1] https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2011/05/man_found_dead_in_truck_after_getting_stuck_in_snow_spending_nearly_70_days_in_remote_linn_county.html https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2011/05/ma...

watersb 7y ago
^likely^unlikely Thanks for this story. I wonder what I would do.
mike_d 7y ago
I used to do Search and Rescue and I can absolutely tell you in all cases the best thing to do when lost is to stay put. Unless you are in immediate danger, or can move to a high point to get a cell signal but remain within visual range of your car/tent/etc. don't leave. SAR teams only have the resources to search a relatively small area (dozens of square miles at most), so if you start wandering off from your point last known (which we determine based on interviews with people with knowledge of your plans, tire tracks, open gates, cell phone pings, and other clues) you are removing yourself from the area where professional searchers and first responders are looking for you. Your time should be spent trying to create a signal. Make a small fire that you can keep under control and burn rubber/plastic to create dark smoke. Lay out reflective materials. Whistle, clap, or yell every 15 minutes. Keep listening for rescuers calling out.
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  Your justification assumes you're being searched for. If you learn that the search has been called off, is it still always better to stay put?
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    A generic signal like smoke could work even when explicit search is called off. In this specific case, broken down car has gasoline and battery and even good fuel source (foams will a lot of smoke and thanks to fire retardant will burn long), making a fire is quite trivial with such means.

glofish 7y ago

James Kim was one of the early online streamer personalities, ran CNET product reviews watchable over the web but also via TiVo and other similar devices. I remember how surreal it was to hear his fate.

jarcoal 7y ago
Indeed. I remember watching him on Fresh Gear, which aired on ZDTV (later became TechTV).

mongol 7y ago

Or this story from Sweden "A Swedish man has survived being trapped in his snow-covered car for two months without food" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17088173 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17088173

anonsivalley652 7y ago
That works with clean water. Most people can go a few days to a week without water ("3 days" is an oft-quoted factoid), but that's about it. Having water, survival without food is hard limited on a person's body fat and their metabolic rate. For example, I have 80 lbs / 36 kg of sacrificial body mass. Assume extracting 3400 kcal/lbs of fat and a 2000 kcal/day RMR (let's call it 2500 because of activity). That works out to ~109 days / ~3.5 months of survival. IANAD: Also helpful to prevent death & long-term damage would be: - electrolytes and minerals (Na, K, Mg, Ca, Fe) - vitamins (c, b12, a, b-complex, e, k, d) - small quantities of lipids to empty the gallbladder to prevent gallstones. To accomplish this, a six-month supply of multivitamins, a dried electrolyte mix and a large bottle of shelf-stable oil would be the bare-minimum. (Do the rationing math ahead-of-time so that you don't die.) Even better would be to avoid this scenario altogether: - carry a properly-registered GPS PLB ($250-400 USD) with a maintained battery (I saw one model of PLB lasted 5 years, after which it needed replacement at a dealer for an unspecified cost. It also has a hard limit on the number of self tests that can be performed without a battery replacement service. This is exactly why we need the right-to-repair. I came across a PLB with an user-replaceable battery, but it's $1000 USD and the batteries cost $175 USD (when it costs about $15 to make), so clearly the PLB business-model is a razor-blade/inkjet-printer economy that is all about planned-obsolescence and lock-in.) - a signaling mirror (with aiming hole) - a multi-chamber, insanely-loud, rescue whistle
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Don't forget about: - source of fire - waterproof (perhaps also fireproof and thermal) blanket. - sharp long shovel - knife - rope The lower down the list, the more optional it is.

dorfsmay 7y ago

Another learning from this story is that SMS (cell phone text message) can get through even when you think you don't have reception, and based on the weather. Also phones will keep trying to send them until they can. So it's always worth sending a text for help with your exact coordinate.

cjrp 7y ago
Also, calling emergency services will use any available network, so even if your normal provider has no coverage your call might still get through if you're within range of a competitor's tower.
pacerwpg 7y ago
That is true, but the cell reception is abysmal in that area. I drive out there frequently and do not have cell reception 10-15 km closer to the tower than where they presumptively were.

sillysaurusx 7y ago

It wasn't necessarily that he left the car, but that he crossed a creek. Once you touch water in winter, you're in big trouble. It's good to stay sheltered if help is coming. But at the time, I remember people saying that rescuers found the car thanks to finding Kim's footprints.