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Wait until they hear about neodymium processing for wind turbines.

by _pmf_ 7y ago

briandear 7y ago
They won’t hear about it. The “proper” narrative is to promote the terribleness of oil and gas.
- sdoering 7y ago
  I wouldn't say that. I would even say lots of people know about that. At least knowledgeable people do. But they also know how to not derail. Because whataboutism doesn't help a discussion. So I am glad that most people discussing here do not try to derail or play smoke and mirrors.
wiggler00m 7y ago
https://min-eng.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-real-cost-of-using-neodymium-in.html https://min-eng.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-real-cost-of-using-... "Neodymium is found most often in monazite and bastnasite. Due to the fact that these minerals also contain lanthanides and other rare earth elements, it is difficult to isolate neodymium. The first isolation process involves extracting the lanthanides and metals out of the ores in their salt form. This step is carried out using sulphuric acid, hydrochloric acid, and sodium hydroxide. To further isolate the neodymium from other lanthanides and metals, procedures such as solvent extraction and ion exchange are used. Once neodymium has been reduced to its fluoride form using these processes, it can be reacted with pure calcium metal in a heated chamber to form pure neodymium and calcium fluoride. Some calcium contaminants remain in the neodymium, and vacuum processes are used to remove any of these contaminants. It is an expensive and potentially environmentally harmful process. In a recent posting (February 1st), it was noted that China produces over 90% of the world’s rare earths, and that Beijing’s export reductions in recent years have forced high-tech firms to relocate to China. An article in a UK newspaper claims to have uncovered the distinctly dirty truth about the process used to extract neodymium: it has an appalling environmental impact that raises serious questions over the credibility of so-called green technology. According to the report, hidden out of sight behind smoke-shrouded factory complexes lie vast, hissing cauldrons of chemicals in tailing lakes that are often very poorly constructed and maintained; throughout the extraction process large amounts of highly toxic acids, heavy metals and other chemicals are emitted into the air that people breathe, and leak into surface and ground water. The report concludes that whenever we purchase products that contain rare earth metals, we are unknowingly taking part in massive environmental degradation and the destruction of communities. It is a real dilemma for environmentalists who want to see the growth of the renewables industry but we should recognise the environmental destruction that is being caused while making these wind turbines."
- ljf 7y ago
  This blog post relies on the Daily Mail as it's main source. Are there any other articles or sites you can point me too, DM has plenty of links to big oil and regularly prints dubious anti 'green' material. This sounds believable though, so interested to read more.
- Tade0 7y ago
  Regarding the last paragraph: From that same article: A direct-drive permanent-magnet generator for a top capacity wind turbine would use around 2 tonnes of neodymium-based permanent magnet material. https://roskill.com/news/rare-earths-changing-magnet-compositions-to-manage-supply-availability/ https://roskill.com/news/rare-earths-changing-magnet-composi... The rare earth content in neodymium-iron-boron (NdFeB) magnets is 29-33% and the main rare earths used are neodymium and praseodymium (NdPr), typically at a ratio of 3:1. Given this data your typical wind turbine contains ~650kg of rare-earths. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277639048_An_Assessment_of_the_Rare_Earth_Element_Content_of_Conventional_and_Electric_Vehicles https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277639048_An_Assess... We estimate that approximately 0.44 kg of rare earths are used in a typical conventional sedan, with approximately80% of the rare earth content in magnets. As such, neodymium is the most extensively used rare earth, followed by cerium,which is used mainly in catalytic converters. The mass of rare earths in a full hybrid electric vehicle with a nickel metal hydride battery is approximately 4.5 kg. A full hybrid electric vehicle with a lithium-ion battery contains approximately 1kg of rare earth elements. Basically one turbine is equivalent to ~1500 cars in terms of rare earths, which may seem high, but if you compare the production scale, wind turbines are unlikely to be the main consumers of neodymium, or rare earths in general.
jschwartzi 7y ago
What are you saying? That we can't talk about any environmental issues because we don't list every single environmental issue we're aware of? I'm sure everyone discussing this article is aware that neodymium processing is very hazardous. But right now we're learning that "simple" oil & gas extraction is also extremely hazardous, that the hazards are completely ignored, that non-employees of the extraction companies are deeply affected by the hazardous waste, that the extraction companies themselves work very hard to make it appear safe when in reality it can make you very sick, and generally that oil & gas extraction companies do not care at all about the treatment of these people on whom they are dumping these chemicals. But by all means, let's also talk about neodymium production in China to distract ourselves from what's going on in our own back yards.

Wait until they hear about neodymium processing for wind turbines.

by _pmf_ 7y ago

Wait until they hear about neodymium processing for wind turbines.

briandear 7y ago

They won’t hear about it. The “proper” narrative is to promote the terribleness of oil and gas.

sdoering 7y ago
I wouldn't say that. I would even say lots of people know about that. At least knowledgeable people do. But they also know how to not derail. Because whataboutism doesn't help a discussion. So I am glad that most people discussing here do not try to derail or play smoke and mirrors.

wiggler00m 7y ago

https://min-eng.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-real-cost-of-using-neodymium-in.html https://min-eng.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-real-cost-of-using-... "Neodymium is found most often in monazite and bastnasite. Due to the fact that these minerals also contain lanthanides and other rare earth elements, it is difficult to isolate neodymium. The first isolation process involves extracting the lanthanides and metals out of the ores in their salt form. This step is carried out using sulphuric acid, hydrochloric acid, and sodium hydroxide. To further isolate the neodymium from other lanthanides and metals, procedures such as solvent extraction and ion exchange are used. Once neodymium has been reduced to its fluoride form using these processes, it can be reacted with pure calcium metal in a heated chamber to form pure neodymium and calcium fluoride. Some calcium contaminants remain in the neodymium, and vacuum processes are used to remove any of these contaminants. It is an expensive and potentially environmentally harmful process. In a recent posting (February 1st), it was noted that China produces over 90% of the world’s rare earths, and that Beijing’s export reductions in recent years have forced high-tech firms to relocate to China. An article in a UK newspaper claims to have uncovered the distinctly dirty truth about the process used to extract neodymium: it has an appalling environmental impact that raises serious questions over the credibility of so-called green technology. According to the report, hidden out of sight behind smoke-shrouded factory complexes lie vast, hissing cauldrons of chemicals in tailing lakes that are often very poorly constructed and maintained; throughout the extraction process large amounts of highly toxic acids, heavy metals and other chemicals are emitted into the air that people breathe, and leak into surface and ground water. The report concludes that whenever we purchase products that contain rare earth metals, we are unknowingly taking part in massive environmental degradation and the destruction of communities. It is a real dilemma for environmentalists who want to see the growth of the renewables industry but we should recognise the environmental destruction that is being caused while making these wind turbines."

ljf 7y ago
This blog post relies on the Daily Mail as it's main source. Are there any other articles or sites you can point me too, DM has plenty of links to big oil and regularly prints dubious anti 'green' material. This sounds believable though, so interested to read more.
Tade0 7y ago
Regarding the last paragraph: From that same article: A direct-drive permanent-magnet generator for a top capacity wind turbine would use around 2 tonnes of neodymium-based permanent magnet material. https://roskill.com/news/rare-earths-changing-magnet-compositions-to-manage-supply-availability/ https://roskill.com/news/rare-earths-changing-magnet-composi... The rare earth content in neodymium-iron-boron (NdFeB) magnets is 29-33% and the main rare earths used are neodymium and praseodymium (NdPr), typically at a ratio of 3:1. Given this data your typical wind turbine contains ~650kg of rare-earths. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277639048_An_Assessment_of_the_Rare_Earth_Element_Content_of_Conventional_and_Electric_Vehicles https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277639048_An_Assess... We estimate that approximately 0.44 kg of rare earths are used in a typical conventional sedan, with approximately80% of the rare earth content in magnets. As such, neodymium is the most extensively used rare earth, followed by cerium,which is used mainly in catalytic converters. The mass of rare earths in a full hybrid electric vehicle with a nickel metal hydride battery is approximately 4.5 kg. A full hybrid electric vehicle with a lithium-ion battery contains approximately 1kg of rare earth elements. Basically one turbine is equivalent to ~1500 cars in terms of rare earths, which may seem high, but if you compare the production scale, wind turbines are unlikely to be the main consumers of neodymium, or rare earths in general.

jschwartzi 7y ago

What are you saying? That we can't talk about any environmental issues because we don't list every single environmental issue we're aware of? I'm sure everyone discussing this article is aware that neodymium processing is very hazardous. But right now we're learning that "simple" oil & gas extraction is also extremely hazardous, that the hazards are completely ignored, that non-employees of the extraction companies are deeply affected by the hazardous waste, that the extraction companies themselves work very hard to make it appear safe when in reality it can make you very sick, and generally that oil & gas extraction companies do not care at all about the treatment of these people on whom they are dumping these chemicals. But by all means, let's also talk about neodymium production in China to distract ourselves from what's going on in our own back yards.