7 ms·

Downvoting isn't the problem - it's spam flagging. There's no better tool for suppressing ideas and viewpoints you disagree with than flagging it. Only on HN ca

Downvoting isn't the problem - it's spam flagging. There's no better tool for suppressing ideas and viewpoints you disagree with than flagging it. Only on HN can a story occupy #1 on the front page due to overwhelming upvotes, and 30 seconds later be sunk to the depths of page 2 or 3 by a handful of flaggers who disagree with the content that's presented.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
Nah, you can do that on Reddit as well...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- edgyquant 7y ago
  Reddit is a horrible place for discussion
untog 7y ago
Strongly agreed. If I recall HN also has some built in functionality that downranks posts when the comments on it come in at high volume, indicating some level of flame war. I get the motivations behind both, and in some situations it works great. But a lot of the time it helps to enforce a monoculture on the site: any disagreement, particularly strong disagreement, is seen as a negative signal and is vanished from the site. Next time you see a post about, say, women software engineers, you’ll be able to watch it happen in real time.
slg 7y ago
I have complained about this to moderators before. There are certain topics that are almost off limits on HN not due to the rules, but due to the heavy flagging they always receive. Articles by, about, and for women are one common example. These articles being flagged results in this community being pulled further into a dangerous realm of misogyny that already exist in some pockets of the tech world. EDIT: Another example of semi-banned topics is criticism of HN. This post was number 1 on the front page a few minutes ago. It is already down to 11 with several older posts with fewer points higher up on the front page. EDIT 2: And now this post is seemingly flagged killed. From number 1 to disappeared in roughly 10 minutes.
- ColinWright 7y ago
  I'm not a mod and I don't have any inside track, but I've been around a while. I suspect that this item has fallen not because of flags, but because it's got 80 comments and only 75 votes. There is a mechanism as a proxy to detect flame wars, and is not necessarily because of flagging. If you think this has been sunk inappropriately then email the mods. They are quite open to getting honest, constructive comments and suggestions. If you think this item and this discussion is of value to the community, let them know and they might agree and remove the flame-war penalty.
  - slg 7y ago
    I have scrolled through several pages and this post is no longer in the top 200 on HN. I have never seen the flame-war penalty hit anything close to that hard that quickly. I am pretty sure this is from user flagging.
    - ColinWright 7y ago
      It may be. I've also now read through most of this thread and I can say categorically that for me, this thread is now mostly full of dross, and I'd be tempted to flag it as being of negative value to HN. I haven't, but I can see why others would. Like it or hate it, the purpose of the voting system is to provide a direction for the content. You may disagree, but it's like elections - you get what "the community" deems valuable or relevant. There's a lot of stuff I post that sinks without trace, and other things that get downvoted into obvlivion even though I personally think they are of positive value. The community decides - you have to accept that.
      - slg 7y ago
        I am not suggesting we remove the ability to downvote or flag. I still want the community to decide most of these things. I simply want more accountability for these actions so they aren't used for petty reasons. You would be free to flag this post for causing a comment section full of garbage. You would just have to say that rather than flagging and moving on.
defertoreptar 7y ago
A trust score could solve this problem. Whenever someone flags a thread, the thread either gets globally flagged or not. If it automatically gets globally flagged, a mod may un-flag it. Or, it may not be automatically flagged, and a mod will flag it. We can then find the probability that a user's flag will result in a "permanent, global flag" by looking at the user's history. We ought to use the lower bound of the Wilson score interval for this. This is the user's trust score, which needs to remain hidden from them. We then set some threshold under which a user's flag will be shadow-ignored. This way, we only act on feedback that has a high probability of fitting the same pattern of mod behavior. Just make sure you have quality mods who consistently and correctly flag threads.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago

Nah, you can do that on Reddit as well...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
edgyquant 7y ago
Reddit is a horrible place for discussion

untog 7y ago

Strongly agreed. If I recall HN also has some built in functionality that downranks posts when the comments on it come in at high volume, indicating some level of flame war. I get the motivations behind both, and in some situations it works great. But a lot of the time it helps to enforce a monoculture on the site: any disagreement, particularly strong disagreement, is seen as a negative signal and is vanished from the site. Next time you see a post about, say, women software engineers, you’ll be able to watch it happen in real time.

slg 7y ago

I have complained about this to moderators before. There are certain topics that are almost off limits on HN not due to the rules, but due to the heavy flagging they always receive. Articles by, about, and for women are one common example. These articles being flagged results in this community being pulled further into a dangerous realm of misogyny that already exist in some pockets of the tech world. EDIT: Another example of semi-banned topics is criticism of HN. This post was number 1 on the front page a few minutes ago. It is already down to 11 with several older posts with fewer points higher up on the front page. EDIT 2: And now this post is seemingly flagged killed. From number 1 to disappeared in roughly 10 minutes.

ColinWright 7y ago
I'm not a mod and I don't have any inside track, but I've been around a while. I suspect that this item has fallen not because of flags, but because it's got 80 comments and only 75 votes. There is a mechanism as a proxy to detect flame wars, and is not necessarily because of flagging. If you think this has been sunk inappropriately then email the mods. They are quite open to getting honest, constructive comments and suggestions. If you think this item and this discussion is of value to the community, let them know and they might agree and remove the flame-war penalty.
- slg 7y ago
  I have scrolled through several pages and this post is no longer in the top 200 on HN. I have never seen the flame-war penalty hit anything close to that hard that quickly. I am pretty sure this is from user flagging.
  - ColinWright 7y ago
    It may be. I've also now read through most of this thread and I can say categorically that for me, this thread is now mostly full of dross, and I'd be tempted to flag it as being of negative value to HN. I haven't, but I can see why others would. Like it or hate it, the purpose of the voting system is to provide a direction for the content. You may disagree, but it's like elections - you get what "the community" deems valuable or relevant. There's a lot of stuff I post that sinks without trace, and other things that get downvoted into obvlivion even though I personally think they are of positive value. The community decides - you have to accept that.
    - slg 7y ago
      I am not suggesting we remove the ability to downvote or flag. I still want the community to decide most of these things. I simply want more accountability for these actions so they aren't used for petty reasons. You would be free to flag this post for causing a comment section full of garbage. You would just have to say that rather than flagging and moving on.

defertoreptar 7y ago

A trust score could solve this problem. Whenever someone flags a thread, the thread either gets globally flagged or not. If it automatically gets globally flagged, a mod may un-flag it. Or, it may not be automatically flagged, and a mod will flag it. We can then find the probability that a user's flag will result in a "permanent, global flag" by looking at the user's history. We ought to use the lower bound of the Wilson score interval for this. This is the user's trust score, which needs to remain hidden from them. We then set some threshold under which a user's flag will be shadow-ignored. This way, we only act on feedback that has a high probability of fitting the same pattern of mod behavior. Just make sure you have quality mods who consistently and correctly flag threads.