5 ms·

Gmail of an old man with 0 mails blocked

69 points by bronzeage 7y ago

I'm writing this here because of how frustratingly broken is google's and gmail's terms and services. My grandfather's Apple ID (and therefore iPad) is completely unusable because the apple id is blocked awaiting email validation. Minewhile, the gmail account, which was used only for the Apple ID, and had no other uses whatsoever, is also blocked. Downloading the mail you can clearly see there is no activity in the gmail at all, except Apple ID, and somehow Google found this account as violating its terms and services. Apple's and Google's security policies have become a Kafkaesque nightmare. They randomly trigger account locking for no reasons, apple's strict Apple ID renders your device unusable while gmail can apparently lock you out of 'terms of services violation' when you literally did nothing. Old people can randomly trigger those lock downs and end up with unusable devices. Why the hell is google allowed to lock you down from even receiving (not even talking about sending) emails when their stupid heuristics triggers a random lockdown?

bouke 7y ago
Welcome to the world of algorithms, unaccountably going about their business while we entrust them with more and more power.
choeger 7y ago
Well, ianal, but I would say that apple cannot block you from your legally owned device, so maybe good old fashioned letter or visit to the Apple customer support is order.
newscracker 7y ago
I get how extremely frustrating and angering this must be! I’d recommend chatting with Apple Support or calling Apple Support first, since there’s no way to do anything similar with Google (AFAIK). Not that this can prevent such an occurrence for others, but my guess is that providing a phone number while registering for Google services and verifying that number makes the user more trustworthy to Google than otherwise. This is a big compromise on privacy for someone like me (and I’ve anyway switched to other providers), but anyone who’s tied to Gmail/Google and does not want to use paid and better alternatives could probably benefit from this.
SQL2219 7y ago
Take devices to Apple store. Get protonmail account. Done.
- mvanbaak 7y ago
  This
  - craftyguy 7y ago
    > This "Hacker" "news" has such high quality discussions now! When did this start happening?
throwaway29303 7y ago
If I were in your shoes I'd use other products/services instead. The problem with the "billion user audience" products/services is that they do not have enough people (if any) as support when stuff like this happens. Try other services/products as suggested by other posters here. It sucks but it's the only solution to this problem. Good luck.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  If I were in your shoes I'd use other products/services instead. Not a lot of grandparents have the ability to just throw away a $500 tablet.
  - kleer001 7y ago
    the resale market is pretty good for apple devices
Waterluvian 7y ago
Just go into your local branch and politely ask to talk to the manager. They have the power to override all mistakes and are reasonable rational people.
- LyndsySimon 7y ago
  Do you mean an Apple Store? If so, that’s not very helpful advice for many people. The nearest Apple Store to me is about three hours away. That’s better than it was a couple of years ago, when I would have had to have driven six or more hours to get to one.
  - jolmg 7y ago
    I think Waterluvian was trying to be sarcastic, and probably meant Google.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    I'm being a smartass commenting on how that era of human intractable business is dying or dead.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      That's funny and all but when someone is asking for actual advice it is also treating them in a way that is similar to using someone who is already down as a soap box to tell your jokes. At least put a /s in there.
- mqzkehfbazkebf 7y ago
  Karen ?
exlurker 7y ago
Sad story, indeed :( I'm currently slowly, but steadily migrating to fastmail, and I can feel the burden off my shoulders each service i re-reroute. I hope this gets resolved soon, I also recommend switching mail providers.
jolmg 7y ago
> Why the hell is google allowed to lock you down Google can do whatever they want with the free service they're giving away. Hell, even if they charged you for it, they're still free to end the service for whatever reason they want. > from even receiving (not even talking about sending) emails It's not like receiving is free for them or even cheaper for them than sending. It's interesting how it's common to think that the services that Google gives away are some kind of public service, that they're somehow obligated to provide, as if they were paid for by taxes or something.
- AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
  It’s funny how some people will arbitrarily become a right-libertarian to come to the defense of some company but wont follow that defense through to its conclusion. Sure, Google is a company comprised of shareholders but it’s also a publicly traded company, which invokes numerous protections and services of the State, which no private person could ever dream of getting for themselves. Many governments have entangled themselves with google, which is one of the most compelling reasons for Alphabet’s current enormity. They do sketchy things for intelligence arms of governments, law enforcement, etc., which is taxpayer-funded. People who truly believe in the principles you’re invoking here - the idea that private property rights allow people to do “whatever” - would disagree with your fundamental premise, which tells me that you don’t apply this position in a principled way.
  - jolmg 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand you. What do you think I'm not following through on? What does Google being a publicly traded company or their offering services to government entities have to do with their right to decide who to give away services to? > People who truly believe in the principles you’re invoking here - the idea that private property rights allow people to do “whatever” That seems more generic than what I said. I'm also not sure I'd call it a principle. If a man is giving away sandwiches to everyone, would it be invoking principles to say that he has no obligation to give a sandwich to each and every person? I think it's just a statement of fact. > would disagree with your fundamental premise Sorry, I'm not familiar with this type of language. What is this premise that you refer to? EDIT: > people will arbitrarily become a right-libertarian to come to the defense of some company but wont follow that defense through to its conclusion. I'm not sure if the idea I expressed is right-libertarian. If it is, then ok. However, saying that I become right-libertarian seems to imply that I believe in everything that is right-libertarian, which might not be the case. Is your idea of following through to stick with one of these labels and everything they imply and the exclusion of everything implied with every other label? I'm not sure people and their ideals can be categorized so neatly like that.
ac29 7y ago
Having never used an iDevice, is this actually correct? Is a Apple ID/Account actually required to use the device? Android devices certainly dont require a Google account or any other account to use.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  No it’s not required. But if you want to backup your data without a computer, you need an iCloud account.
- m463 7y ago
  I believe apple recently relaxed these restrictions (probably GDPR forced it) and you don't need an apple id to use your device. However, you will not be able to run anything but the default apps. You are required to have an apple id to download apps, even free ones. Even if you write an app yourself, and apple id is requried to install them on your device.
ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago
https://getsupport.apple.com/ https://getsupport.apple.com/
TrueNomad 7y ago
If you are using a free product, your opinion of how to make that product act is as important as someone on the other side of the planet screaming, i.e.,, do not matter. If you are in need of a reliable email provide, sign up with a provider, which will not do such things in return of paying them some money. Problem solved. Free products are free for a reason. Because you are the product. If you are not using your gmail, google is not recouping what it is spending on keeping your account alive. Why should they do such a thing ? Businesses are there to make money, not to lose it.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  This is a terrible argument. Our personal lives and digital lives are becoming amalgamated to an extent never seen before. Our emails, for better or worse, are mainly handled by private companies while giving the importance of physical addresses. We can't expect everyone to understand the nuances of this and should protect them from abusive practices of private companies. E.g. You should be able to keep a readonly email even after getting banned so you can slowly move off of it. Google shouldn't be able to just wipe out a good portion of your digital identity through an algorithm or a press of a button. Maybe this sort of legislation would make them double think their business decisions and if they want to stay in this business. I suspect they would, email is a massive part of their industry footprint.
firebones 7y ago
Had a similar situation with my mother's iPad and Yahoo. YahooMail wouldn't allow a password change because my mother, having suffered an injury, moved and gave up her landline phone number, and had no alternative verification mechanisms set up. The native iPad mail app still connected via a cached credential, but those credentials can't be backed up. The iPad power failed sporadically, so she lost contact with people, with no way to transfer credentials to her new device (on the rare instance the iPad would briefly start), and no way to reset the YahooMail password. The only solution I heard that might work is to buy a paid yahoomail account on her behalf (assuming there's some way to verify her identity) and see if someone in support can get her back on the right track so that she can keep getting her spam and point anyone contacting her to her new address. I hope this stuff gets easier before I get to my 90s.

69 points by bronzeage 7y ago

bouke 7y ago

Welcome to the world of algorithms, unaccountably going about their business while we entrust them with more and more power.

choeger 7y ago

Well, ianal, but I would say that apple cannot block you from your legally owned device, so maybe good old fashioned letter or visit to the Apple customer support is order.

newscracker 7y ago

I get how extremely frustrating and angering this must be! I’d recommend chatting with Apple Support or calling Apple Support first, since there’s no way to do anything similar with Google (AFAIK). Not that this can prevent such an occurrence for others, but my guess is that providing a phone number while registering for Google services and verifying that number makes the user more trustworthy to Google than otherwise. This is a big compromise on privacy for someone like me (and I’ve anyway switched to other providers), but anyone who’s tied to Gmail/Google and does not want to use paid and better alternatives could probably benefit from this.

SQL2219 7y ago

Take devices to Apple store. Get protonmail account. Done.

mvanbaak 7y ago
This
- craftyguy 7y ago
  > This "Hacker" "news" has such high quality discussions now! When did this start happening?

throwaway29303 7y ago

If I were in your shoes I'd use other products/services instead. The problem with the "billion user audience" products/services is that they do not have enough people (if any) as support when stuff like this happens. Try other services/products as suggested by other posters here. It sucks but it's the only solution to this problem. Good luck.

reaperducer 7y ago
If I were in your shoes I'd use other products/services instead. Not a lot of grandparents have the ability to just throw away a $500 tablet.
- kleer001 7y ago
  the resale market is pretty good for apple devices

Waterluvian 7y ago

Just go into your local branch and politely ask to talk to the manager. They have the power to override all mistakes and are reasonable rational people.

LyndsySimon 7y ago
Do you mean an Apple Store? If so, that’s not very helpful advice for many people. The nearest Apple Store to me is about three hours away. That’s better than it was a couple of years ago, when I would have had to have driven six or more hours to get to one.
- jolmg 7y ago
  I think Waterluvian was trying to be sarcastic, and probably meant Google.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I'm being a smartass commenting on how that era of human intractable business is dying or dead.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    That's funny and all but when someone is asking for actual advice it is also treating them in a way that is similar to using someone who is already down as a soap box to tell your jokes. At least put a /s in there.
mqzkehfbazkebf 7y ago
Karen ?

exlurker 7y ago

Sad story, indeed :( I'm currently slowly, but steadily migrating to fastmail, and I can feel the burden off my shoulders each service i re-reroute. I hope this gets resolved soon, I also recommend switching mail providers.

jolmg 7y ago

> Why the hell is google allowed to lock you down Google can do whatever they want with the free service they're giving away. Hell, even if they charged you for it, they're still free to end the service for whatever reason they want. > from even receiving (not even talking about sending) emails It's not like receiving is free for them or even cheaper for them than sending. It's interesting how it's common to think that the services that Google gives away are some kind of public service, that they're somehow obligated to provide, as if they were paid for by taxes or something.

AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
It’s funny how some people will arbitrarily become a right-libertarian to come to the defense of some company but wont follow that defense through to its conclusion. Sure, Google is a company comprised of shareholders but it’s also a publicly traded company, which invokes numerous protections and services of the State, which no private person could ever dream of getting for themselves. Many governments have entangled themselves with google, which is one of the most compelling reasons for Alphabet’s current enormity. They do sketchy things for intelligence arms of governments, law enforcement, etc., which is taxpayer-funded. People who truly believe in the principles you’re invoking here - the idea that private property rights allow people to do “whatever” - would disagree with your fundamental premise, which tells me that you don’t apply this position in a principled way.
- jolmg 7y ago
  I'm not sure I understand you. What do you think I'm not following through on? What does Google being a publicly traded company or their offering services to government entities have to do with their right to decide who to give away services to? > People who truly believe in the principles you’re invoking here - the idea that private property rights allow people to do “whatever” That seems more generic than what I said. I'm also not sure I'd call it a principle. If a man is giving away sandwiches to everyone, would it be invoking principles to say that he has no obligation to give a sandwich to each and every person? I think it's just a statement of fact. > would disagree with your fundamental premise Sorry, I'm not familiar with this type of language. What is this premise that you refer to? EDIT: > people will arbitrarily become a right-libertarian to come to the defense of some company but wont follow that defense through to its conclusion. I'm not sure if the idea I expressed is right-libertarian. If it is, then ok. However, saying that I become right-libertarian seems to imply that I believe in everything that is right-libertarian, which might not be the case. Is your idea of following through to stick with one of these labels and everything they imply and the exclusion of everything implied with every other label? I'm not sure people and their ideals can be categorized so neatly like that.

ac29 7y ago

Having never used an iDevice, is this actually correct? Is a Apple ID/Account actually required to use the device? Android devices certainly dont require a Google account or any other account to use.

colejohnson66 7y ago
No it’s not required. But if you want to backup your data without a computer, you need an iCloud account.
m463 7y ago
I believe apple recently relaxed these restrictions (probably GDPR forced it) and you don't need an apple id to use your device. However, you will not be able to run anything but the default apps. You are required to have an apple id to download apps, even free ones. Even if you write an app yourself, and apple id is requried to install them on your device.

ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago

https://getsupport.apple.com/ https://getsupport.apple.com/

TrueNomad 7y ago

If you are using a free product, your opinion of how to make that product act is as important as someone on the other side of the planet screaming, i.e.,, do not matter. If you are in need of a reliable email provide, sign up with a provider, which will not do such things in return of paying them some money. Problem solved. Free products are free for a reason. Because you are the product. If you are not using your gmail, google is not recouping what it is spending on keeping your account alive. Why should they do such a thing ? Businesses are there to make money, not to lose it.

aaomidi 7y ago
This is a terrible argument. Our personal lives and digital lives are becoming amalgamated to an extent never seen before. Our emails, for better or worse, are mainly handled by private companies while giving the importance of physical addresses. We can't expect everyone to understand the nuances of this and should protect them from abusive practices of private companies. E.g. You should be able to keep a readonly email even after getting banned so you can slowly move off of it. Google shouldn't be able to just wipe out a good portion of your digital identity through an algorithm or a press of a button. Maybe this sort of legislation would make them double think their business decisions and if they want to stay in this business. I suspect they would, email is a massive part of their industry footprint.

firebones 7y ago

Had a similar situation with my mother's iPad and Yahoo. YahooMail wouldn't allow a password change because my mother, having suffered an injury, moved and gave up her landline phone number, and had no alternative verification mechanisms set up. The native iPad mail app still connected via a cached credential, but those credentials can't be backed up. The iPad power failed sporadically, so she lost contact with people, with no way to transfer credentials to her new device (on the rare instance the iPad would briefly start), and no way to reset the YahooMail password. The only solution I heard that might work is to buy a paid yahoomail account on her behalf (assuming there's some way to verify her identity) and see if someone in support can get her back on the right track so that she can keep getting her spam and point anyone contacting her to her new address. I hope this stuff gets easier before I get to my 90s.