6 ms·

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, slo

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot of people who won't even read what you have to say if the writing is lazy and disrespectful to the reader.

geoffw8 16y ago
Not that I do, but what if I said I had learning difficulties? Or never went to school. Your saying I'm not allowed to contribute?
- gnaritas 16y ago
  Nowhere did I say or imply that, I simply said there are quite a few people who won't read sloppy writing; that's a simple statement of fact. If you want to be read by the widest audience, then consider the reader rather than what's easiest for you.
mkr-hn 16y ago
I think words like "proper" are what throw a lot of people. It brings up images of a grumpy English teacher. But natural language is like a programming language. If you start tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place, it won't compile, and it won't make much sense. Things like grammar and spelling are the syntax of natural language, and failing to make sure you're close to the norm is a good way to throw an exception. Not as concise as "proper" or "correct," but less likely to start an argument.
- jarek 16y ago
  The root comment compiled perfectly. The grammar was understandable and the logic reasonably sound. The only deviations from the gold standard of natural English are: 1) "lol"; 2) ";]"; 3) lack of capitalization on some words. That is much closer to whitespace conventions than tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place.
  - mkr-hn 16y ago
    I think #3 is the sticking point. I can read it, but a lifetime of reading has trained me to use capitalization past a period and space as a prompt to some sort of change. The lack of it makes a paragraph read like an unbroken sentence to me. It slows me down considerably. I'm not defending or agreeing with the complaint, just trying to find the reasoning behind one of the positions. I think people should step back and see what's actually bothering them about the writing (or if there's anything fundamentally bothersome at all).
    - jarek 16y ago
      I agree that the capitalization is a bit of a problem for the root, but at the same time I think SamReidHughes's reply was a vast overreaction. Looking back through the OP's comments per SamReidHughes's reference I agree they're not necessarily up to the HN prose standard but still nothing to go ballistic about.
  - frevd 16y ago
    To all of you - I'm used to capitalization (very much since I'm German and we capitalize every Noun), much less though do I know what to capitalize in English (I got so much angry comment in my phase of capitalizing everything i deemed important that I completely converted to an all-lower-case style). I also know everything about punctuation, having taken two typing courses and one in standardized letter writing. Despite all that, since I'm using CamelCase a lot and my shift keys have suffered from that so much that I have to press them forcedly, I try to limit their use whereever possible (this location just opted out of it ;).
rdouble 16y ago
fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news
- mcantor 16y ago
  The rest of us are not Fred Wilson.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  Then he's being lazy, but if you look at his blog, he most certainly does.
markkat 16y ago
I have to disagree. Some very intelligent people struggle with writing. I can understand skipping a comment over poor grammar. But if you are going to vote, I think you ought to consider the content over the form.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  You don't have to be a good writer to know that sentences begin with capital letters and end with periods; children know that. Anyone who doesn't do that isn't having difficulty writing, they're simply being lazy and only thinking of what's easy for them rather than what's easy for the reader. Not being a good writer is simply no excuse.
Mz 16y ago
I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this type of mistake, which I never made in French. Ironically, it was actually a reflection of his higher fluency. As for the general topic of this sub-thread: I really don't have any problem with the tendency on this forum to correct/critique someone's grammar or spelling. I just think how it is done matters. I can't wrap my brain around claiming that good grammar and spelling matter tons while delivering it with contempt, disrespect, hostility and general bad manners like those are just fine (which I have seen done quite a few times on HN). I would rather talk to someone who makes spelling and grammar errors but has manners than someone whose writing is impeccable but you can just feel them sneering down their nose at you. I didn't think the opening post from SamReidHughes really did that, though it wasn't all warm-fuzziness either. So I opted to assume it was "constructive feedback" given with good intentions even though it wasn't the warmest, most convivial delivery. But then I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. It takes two to make good communication happen. It isn't just about what one person does.
- mcantor 16y ago
  ... I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying. In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly. In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks with unexpected kindness, which usually confuses and annoys them in turn. It's win/win, you see!
  - Mz 16y ago
    Touche. And may you be an excellent influence on the forum. Have an upvote.

geoffw8 16y ago

Not that I do, but what if I said I had learning difficulties? Or never went to school. Your saying I'm not allowed to contribute?

gnaritas 16y ago
Nowhere did I say or imply that, I simply said there are quite a few people who won't read sloppy writing; that's a simple statement of fact. If you want to be read by the widest audience, then consider the reader rather than what's easiest for you.

mkr-hn 16y ago

I think words like "proper" are what throw a lot of people. It brings up images of a grumpy English teacher. But natural language is like a programming language. If you start tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place, it won't compile, and it won't make much sense. Things like grammar and spelling are the syntax of natural language, and failing to make sure you're close to the norm is a good way to throw an exception. Not as concise as "proper" or "correct," but less likely to start an argument.

jarek 16y ago
The root comment compiled perfectly. The grammar was understandable and the logic reasonably sound. The only deviations from the gold standard of natural English are: 1) "lol"; 2) ";]"; 3) lack of capitalization on some words. That is much closer to whitespace conventions than tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place.
- mkr-hn 16y ago
  I think #3 is the sticking point. I can read it, but a lifetime of reading has trained me to use capitalization past a period and space as a prompt to some sort of change. The lack of it makes a paragraph read like an unbroken sentence to me. It slows me down considerably. I'm not defending or agreeing with the complaint, just trying to find the reasoning behind one of the positions. I think people should step back and see what's actually bothering them about the writing (or if there's anything fundamentally bothersome at all).
  - jarek 16y ago
    I agree that the capitalization is a bit of a problem for the root, but at the same time I think SamReidHughes's reply was a vast overreaction. Looking back through the OP's comments per SamReidHughes's reference I agree they're not necessarily up to the HN prose standard but still nothing to go ballistic about.
- frevd 16y ago
  To all of you - I'm used to capitalization (very much since I'm German and we capitalize every Noun), much less though do I know what to capitalize in English (I got so much angry comment in my phase of capitalizing everything i deemed important that I completely converted to an all-lower-case style). I also know everything about punctuation, having taken two typing courses and one in standardized letter writing. Despite all that, since I'm using CamelCase a lot and my shift keys have suffered from that so much that I have to press them forcedly, I try to limit their use whereever possible (this location just opted out of it ;).

rdouble 16y ago

fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news

mcantor 16y ago
The rest of us are not Fred Wilson.
gnaritas 16y ago
Then he's being lazy, but if you look at his blog, he most certainly does.

markkat 16y ago

I have to disagree. Some very intelligent people struggle with writing. I can understand skipping a comment over poor grammar. But if you are going to vote, I think you ought to consider the content over the form.

gnaritas 16y ago
You don't have to be a good writer to know that sentences begin with capital letters and end with periods; children know that. Anyone who doesn't do that isn't having difficulty writing, they're simply being lazy and only thinking of what's easy for them rather than what's easy for the reader. Not being a good writer is simply no excuse.

Mz 16y ago

I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this type of mistake, which I never made in French. Ironically, it was actually a reflection of his higher fluency. As for the general topic of this sub-thread: I really don't have any problem with the tendency on this forum to correct/critique someone's grammar or spelling. I just think how it is done matters. I can't wrap my brain around claiming that good grammar and spelling matter tons while delivering it with contempt, disrespect, hostility and general bad manners like those are just fine (which I have seen done quite a few times on HN). I would rather talk to someone who makes spelling and grammar errors but has manners than someone whose writing is impeccable but you can just feel them sneering down their nose at you. I didn't think the opening post from SamReidHughes really did that, though it wasn't all warm-fuzziness either. So I opted to assume it was "constructive feedback" given with good intentions even though it wasn't the warmest, most convivial delivery. But then I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. It takes two to make good communication happen. It isn't just about what one person does.

mcantor 16y ago
... I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying. In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly. In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks with unexpected kindness, which usually confuses and annoys them in turn. It's win/win, you see!
- Mz 16y ago
  Touche. And may you be an excellent influence on the forum. Have an upvote.