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There has been some doubt about the validity of this experiment [1]: "A widespread misconception maintains that the Farm-Fox Experiment started with wild foxes

by fnwk 7y ago

There has been some doubt about the validity of this experiment [1]: "A widespread misconception maintains that the Farm-Fox Experiment started with wild foxes and recapitulated the entire process of domestication. Belyaev himself accurately described the founders as fur-farm foxes, but by referring to the unselected population as ‘wild controls’, contributed to this misconception. In reality, the experiment started with a fox population from eastern Canada that had been captive and purpose-bred since the late 1800s, something Belyaev and his colleagues may have been initially unaware of." [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011

deogeo 7y ago
Even so, the change in behavior seems genuine, when compared to what it was initially. The experimental fault also seems easy to fix - just compare behavior to other fur-farm foxes, instead of wild ones.
- fnwk 7y ago
  The experiment specifically selected for behaviour, though. And the fur-farm foxes seem to have been quite tame already before the start of the experiment. Therefore, I don't find the changes in behaviour very interesting on their own [1]: "The Farm-Fox Experiment selected for a behavioral trait that already existed in the population (Figure 3), essentially recapitulating a selection experiment performed on numerous occasions with dog breeds. [...] The change in the critical period of socialization in the selected foxes is more like the difference between more and less easily socialized dog breeds than between dogs and wolves." [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011
  - brabel 7y ago
    I don't really understand this rebutal... the change in behaviour from the initial population (even if it had already been partially domesticated) was not just interesting, it was absolutely amazing. You can check for yourself how the foxes brought to the US behave on Youtube[1]! Also, the similar study with mice[2] by the same Russian Institute seems to have had even more striking results. The rebutal seems to be using only theoretical objections, without any new original, empirical findings, to counteract tangible evidence that had been accepted by (and astonished) numerous other researchers who actually came into contact with the animals. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html
    - fnwk 7y ago
      The foxes are great proof that behaviour has a genetic component. But the change in behaviour over the course of Belyaev's experiments does not seem that remarkable. Some foxes of the initial population were already happy to approach humans and be held by them, before the experiment even started. The pictures in [1] show farm foxes from Prince Edward Island in 1922 which seem to behave extremely similar to the foxes in the youtube video you linked to. [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011
      - brabel 7y ago
        You are basically claiming that the difference in behaviour that was reported between the initial population and later generations was exaggerated because there seems to be a photo from 1922 showing a tame individual. I hope you see how claiming any level of tameness based on a few photos cannot be considered good evidence. Photos can be highly misleading, it's easy to see something that's not there. From what I understand, all sources reporting from this experiment and other similar ones claim huge differences in behaviour not only betweeen the initial generation and the selected ones, but also between control groups of animals which were kept in very similar conditions, except they were not submitted to "tameness selection". This difference of course over a large amount of animals, not over just a few. So, maybe the animals in the photo were indeed fairly tame (which as I said before, cannot be concluded from old photos), but even then, that does not mean that they were nearly as common as in the "evolved" animals from the study, where the rate of highly tamed individuals reached above 80% already. Which means that pointing out a counter-example is like claiming global warming is fake because it's been cold in the Midwest.
        fnwk 7y ago
        It is almost impossible to show how tame the fur farm foxes on Prince Edward Island really were, but in addition to the photos - of which there are more than one [1] - there are also written reports about how tame the foxes where [2]: "Dr. Frank, among other things at Montreal, had a pair of tame foxes lead about on the main streets, driven around in automobiles and taken to a public dance, where the girls did the fox trot with these foxes around their necks, and all this was photographed, moving pictures taken, etc., and to cap the climax Dr. Frank hired two airplanes, took up a pair of foxes in one and from the other airplane a photograph ground out several reels to be shown in the movies in the near future." How common these traits were is another difficult question. But given that there was prior selection for tameness and that Belyaev specifically looked for those tame foxes to include in his experiment [3], it does not seem so surprising that this trait very quickly became more common. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/12/03/tame-foxes-taught-us-about-animal-domestication-did-we-get-story-wrong/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/12/03/tame-foxes... [2] https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090788674&view=1up&seq=16 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090788674&vi... [3] https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.200800070 https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.200800070
  - natmaka 7y ago
    See also "Wolf Pups That Play Fetch" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22155843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22155843
dmurray 7y ago
The purpose of the experiment wasn't to show "wild foxes can be domesticated in just 30 years of selective breeding", though that is the most famous and perhaps the most important takeaway from it. The hypothesis under test was something like "expression of tameness is genetically linked to expression of physical characteristics, such as spotted fur and floppy ears". It's quite valid in that context: Belyayev started with a population with a low (perhaps non-zero) level of domestication, ended with a moderately domesticated population, and observed the physical differences.
- fnwk 7y ago
  It is doubtful, though, that the spotted fur, floppy ears, and other physical characteristics (domestication syndrome) are a result of the experiment [1]: "The history of the Farm-Fox population undermines the commonly repeated narrative that a suite of domestication syndrome traits emerged solely as a result of selecting on tameness. There is no temporal link between most of the syndrome traits, which first appeared in Prince Edward Island (PEI) fur farms, and the later behavioral selection in Russia." On the spotted fur [1]: "The farm-fox breeders of PEI intentionally selected for white spotting and other unusual coat patterns (Figure 3). They noticed that crossing two white-marked foxes occasionally resulted in animals that held their heads askew, a phenomenon Belyaev would later describe in his population, suggesting shared genetic etiology. White spotting was more common in Belyaev’s selected than unselected populations, but has not been associated with less fearful behavior in individuals (Figure 2D)." On the floppy ears [1]: "The farm foxes of PEI occasionally had floppy ears, even as adults (Figure 3C). In the Farm-Fox Experiment, ‘delayed ear raising’ was noted (ears floppy past 3 weeks of age, but not necessarily into adulthood). While slightly more common in the selected population, the trait is extremely rare, and no association between delayed ear raising and less fearful behavior in individuals has been described (Figure 2D)." [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011

by fnwk 7y ago

deogeo 7y ago

Even so, the change in behavior seems genuine, when compared to what it was initially. The experimental fault also seems easy to fix - just compare behavior to other fur-farm foxes, instead of wild ones.

fnwk 7y ago
The experiment specifically selected for behaviour, though. And the fur-farm foxes seem to have been quite tame already before the start of the experiment. Therefore, I don't find the changes in behaviour very interesting on their own [1]: "The Farm-Fox Experiment selected for a behavioral trait that already existed in the population (Figure 3), essentially recapitulating a selection experiment performed on numerous occasions with dog breeds. [...] The change in the critical period of socialization in the selected foxes is more like the difference between more and less easily socialized dog breeds than between dogs and wolves." [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011
- brabel 7y ago
  I don't really understand this rebutal... the change in behaviour from the initial population (even if it had already been partially domesticated) was not just interesting, it was absolutely amazing. You can check for yourself how the foxes brought to the US behave on Youtube[1]! Also, the similar study with mice[2] by the same Russian Institute seems to have had even more striking results. The rebutal seems to be using only theoretical objections, without any new original, empirical findings, to counteract tangible evidence that had been accepted by (and astonished) numerous other researchers who actually came into contact with the animals. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html
  - fnwk 7y ago
    The foxes are great proof that behaviour has a genetic component. But the change in behaviour over the course of Belyaev's experiments does not seem that remarkable. Some foxes of the initial population were already happy to approach humans and be held by them, before the experiment even started. The pictures in [1] show farm foxes from Prince Edward Island in 1922 which seem to behave extremely similar to the foxes in the youtube video you linked to. [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011
    - brabel 7y ago
      You are basically claiming that the difference in behaviour that was reported between the initial population and later generations was exaggerated because there seems to be a photo from 1922 showing a tame individual. I hope you see how claiming any level of tameness based on a few photos cannot be considered good evidence. Photos can be highly misleading, it's easy to see something that's not there. From what I understand, all sources reporting from this experiment and other similar ones claim huge differences in behaviour not only betweeen the initial generation and the selected ones, but also between control groups of animals which were kept in very similar conditions, except they were not submitted to "tameness selection". This difference of course over a large amount of animals, not over just a few. So, maybe the animals in the photo were indeed fairly tame (which as I said before, cannot be concluded from old photos), but even then, that does not mean that they were nearly as common as in the "evolved" animals from the study, where the rate of highly tamed individuals reached above 80% already. Which means that pointing out a counter-example is like claiming global warming is fake because it's been cold in the Midwest.
      - fnwk 7y ago
        It is almost impossible to show how tame the fur farm foxes on Prince Edward Island really were, but in addition to the photos - of which there are more than one [1] - there are also written reports about how tame the foxes where [2]: "Dr. Frank, among other things at Montreal, had a pair of tame foxes lead about on the main streets, driven around in automobiles and taken to a public dance, where the girls did the fox trot with these foxes around their necks, and all this was photographed, moving pictures taken, etc., and to cap the climax Dr. Frank hired two airplanes, took up a pair of foxes in one and from the other airplane a photograph ground out several reels to be shown in the movies in the near future." How common these traits were is another difficult question. But given that there was prior selection for tameness and that Belyaev specifically looked for those tame foxes to include in his experiment [3], it does not seem so surprising that this trait very quickly became more common. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/12/03/tame-foxes-taught-us-about-animal-domestication-did-we-get-story-wrong/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/12/03/tame-foxes... [2] https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090788674&view=1up&seq=16 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090788674&vi... [3] https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.200800070 https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.200800070
- natmaka 7y ago
  See also "Wolf Pups That Play Fetch" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22155843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22155843

dmurray 7y ago

The purpose of the experiment wasn't to show "wild foxes can be domesticated in just 30 years of selective breeding", though that is the most famous and perhaps the most important takeaway from it. The hypothesis under test was something like "expression of tameness is genetically linked to expression of physical characteristics, such as spotted fur and floppy ears". It's quite valid in that context: Belyayev started with a population with a low (perhaps non-zero) level of domestication, ended with a moderately domesticated population, and observed the physical differences.

fnwk 7y ago
It is doubtful, though, that the spotted fur, floppy ears, and other physical characteristics (domestication syndrome) are a result of the experiment [1]: "The history of the Farm-Fox population undermines the commonly repeated narrative that a suite of domestication syndrome traits emerged solely as a result of selecting on tameness. There is no temporal link between most of the syndrome traits, which first appeared in Prince Edward Island (PEI) fur farms, and the later behavioral selection in Russia." On the spotted fur [1]: "The farm-fox breeders of PEI intentionally selected for white spotting and other unusual coat patterns (Figure 3). They noticed that crossing two white-marked foxes occasionally resulted in animals that held their heads askew, a phenomenon Belyaev would later describe in his population, suggesting shared genetic etiology. White spotting was more common in Belyaev’s selected than unselected populations, but has not been associated with less fearful behavior in individuals (Figure 2D)." On the floppy ears [1]: "The farm foxes of PEI occasionally had floppy ears, even as adults (Figure 3C). In the Farm-Fox Experiment, ‘delayed ear raising’ was noted (ears floppy past 3 weeks of age, but not necessarily into adulthood). While slightly more common in the selected population, the trait is extremely rare, and no association between delayed ear raising and less fearful behavior in individuals has been described (Figure 2D)." [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2019.10.011