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So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conf

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

warent 7y ago
It's interesting because I've always perceived Mormonism (at least the dogmatic kind) as being intolerant given its history of racism and sexism. I suppose a lot has changed over the years, although I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years
- samatman 7y ago
  Neither race nor sex are beliefs, so that wouldn't be in contradiction to the comment you're replying to. I have no opinion on whether Mormons are racist, sexist, or tolerant of different beliefs. My limited experience with them suggests that they're easy-going and work hard, that's about all I've got.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  > I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years You live in Boise. So... I know many black Mormons, but only in places with a significant black population. FWIW, Utah had a black LDS Congresswomen for the past several years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Love
  - darksaints 7y ago
    As a former Mormon, black mormons were so rare that they were treated like celebrities.
    - paulddraper 7y ago
      Where did you live? The LDS Church is headquarted in Utah, and the whole state is literally 1% black. I'm a Mormon and grew up in Florida, and the LDS Church had a typical blend for a "mostly white church." (Realize that virtually every church has a clear racial majority of some kind.)
      - darksaints 7y ago
        In California. There were two black families, a total of five people, in our stake with over 1000 active members.
- snuxoll 7y ago
  > I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years Boisean myself, it’s not exactly like we have much diversity here to begin with - on any given day it feels I’m as likely to spot a non-Caucasian individual as I am a unicorn. That said, I’ve known plenty of LDS members over my life, and just like any religious group you can see ones that are actually tolerant of other beliefs and ones that put on a mask and speak differently behind your back. Then there’s the ones that would speak poorly directly to your face.
- jacurtis 7y ago
  This is largely because up until 1976 the Mormon church didn't allow Black members into its temples or to receive the priesthood (which is an essential step within Mormonism). Imagine joining and/or believing in a church that said "because you are black, you can't go to our glorious temples that we talk so much about. And you can't go to the highest form of heaven because you are black." This is literally the way it was (not exaggerating whatsoever). Luckily the NCAAP started to attack the church since they were one of the most blatantly open racist institutions going into the 1980s. The leadership of the church realized they wouldn't win this fight and changed the rules.
tomrod 7y ago
Exmormon here who has spent significant time with relatively larger names in that org. No, Clay was pretty unique in my view. With due respect to him, the tolerance of conflicting belief often portrayed by his co-adherents is typically extended as a proselytizing or marketing tactic and isn't offered to former Mormon congregants terribly often (see reddit.com/r/exmormon for thousands of documented experiences, or the treatment of John Dehlin, Juanita Brooks, or Sam Young).
- jjeaff 7y ago
  Marketing tactic or not, if that is the behavior, that's the behavior, it's unfair to ascribe intentions and discount the behavior. There are definitely some LDS that fall into the trap of taking offense when someone leaves the religion and then don't treat that person well. They take it as a personal slight that someone else is claiming their religion is wrong. Either by actions or in words. But I have also noticed that many ex-mormons are like vegans. They want to tell everyone about it and preach to everyone else that is still "eating meat". There are also quite a few that are extra sensitive and seem to try to make themselves feel better by bashing their ex-religion and those that are still adherents.
  - tomrod 7y ago
    Look up Heartsell[0][1] sometime. Bonneville Communications is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mormon church. They attempted to sell inclusion and heartfelt feelings as a marketing strategy. They got caught the first time and it was minorly bad PR. They haven't been caught since. Note this is what the central organization does, of which most of the congregants are naive or deliberately uninformed. When I taught missionaries how to be Mormon missionaries several decades ago, "BRT" was part of the sales principles--build a relationship of trust. Why? To get people to buy what you're selling. This is also taught to congregants not actively serving missions, though not as deeply. Consider the calls of "Every member a missionary" (McKay, 1960s), "Lengthen your stride" (Kimball, 1980s), "Hasten the work" (Bednar, 2010s) where membership is exhorted to use sales practices on their neighbors. It's not ascribing bad motives or pretending to know what motivated people, it's having grown up in it and now seeing it outside the organization, objectively and after years of therapy and deprogramming. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20150219201604/http://www.bonneville.com/?nid=32 https://web.archive.org/web/20150219201604/http://www.bonnev... [1] http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression250.mp3 http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression250.mp...
paulddraper 7y ago
As with many religions, "tolerance" is a sensitive issue: blacks, women, LGBT. But yes, there is the stereotype of a humble/reserved successful Mormon businessman. (E.g. I'd put Mitt Romney in that category too)
- daxorid 7y ago
  The LDS Church put its "racist" past behind itself fairly easily because the "Mark of Cain" canard was trivial to dismiss as misinterpretation. LGBT acceptance will be a much, much tougher slog for them, given the central and critical importance that eternal families play in its doctrine and view of spiritual progression.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    Indeed; I doubt LGBT will ever be "accepted" (that is, esteemed as virtuous) by the LDS Church. As you said, it runs directly contrary to core doctrines.
  - ksenzee 7y ago
    It'll be tougher and probably take longer, but there's no real reason it can't happen. You'll notice there's nothing in the Book of Mormon about LGBTQ+ issues. Everything church leaders have said about it is quoting either the Bible or each other. I predict that eventually they'll quit talking about it (like they quit talking about birth control and working moms). There will be a period of live and let live, where gay couples can't get sealed in the temple but are welcome at church and nobody thinks any less of them, and trans kids transition and nobody pitches a fit. And eventually they'll announce a revelation that same-sex marriages are ordained of God, a bunch of fundamentalists will leave the church, and we'll be caught up with 2019 morals (in 2047 or whenever it is).
- wahern 7y ago
  Not many religions in the U.S. have tolerance issues with "blacks" or "women", per se. The LDS church was unique in that regard. But to be fair, that aspect seems to have been sincerely discarded. What lingers is the uncomfortable landscape it finds itself in, and given the background racial landscape in the U.S., I'm sure it'll be an especially long journey out of that wilderness.
dorian-graph 7y ago
I’ve found it to be fairly true/common with LDS people. A lot of the foundational beliefs and programs in the church around the family, and about having balance. Last year the Sabbath day service was shortened an hour from 3 to 2, with one of the purposes to reduce the time away from family.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
From someone who lived in Utah for 20+ years and whose stepfamily are all Mormon, I wouldn't think of tolerance as one of the faith's defining characteristics. Although the intolerance often manifests itself as the kind of fake niceness found in movies when an old lady character needs to belittle someone with a sweet smile or calmly shut them out of polite society, not the fire breathing intolerance that wants to wage holy war.
- dorian-graph 7y ago
  > From someone who lived in Utah for 20+ years Members in Utah are different to members outside of Utah, haha.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    yeah that's pretty well known too. proximity to the prophet I suppose.
    - mrkstu 7y ago
      I'd say its mostly just majority in-group dynamics that you'd find anywhere that a majority shared any characteristic. That combined with well intentioned missionary zeal will of course cause issues. That said, the Salt Lake Valley is now under 50% LDS- the previous Mayor is Lesbian and its pretty progressive generally.
    - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
      More like proximity to each other (and being a huge majority of the population). See also: echo chambers, which are probably a societal plague more than anything.
ashton314 7y ago
As with every religion, the faithfulness of its adherents to the religion’s principles varies from person to person. But certainly the ideal that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches is exactly that: humility, compassion, and tolerance, combined with courage to do what is right regardless of the circumstances. At least for members of the church living in Utah, many (no not all!) have some pioneer heritage. We frequently remind ourselves that persecution is a terrible thing and that we must be tolerant and respectful of other’s beliefs.
bart_spoon 7y ago
As a Mormon myself, I will be the first to say that there can and are plenty of Mormons who are not what I would consider tolerant. But on the whole, I think we are relatively tolerant in regards to other faiths and spiritual beliefs, in large part for the reason you state. I grew up in an area of the country without many Mormons, and was perhaps one of a dozen Mormon kids in a high school of well over a thousand students. I wouldn't say I was ever bullied over my religion in the traditional sense, I found it to be a pretty consistent source of discomfort and a feeling of being an "other". Often it could be innocuous (and often very fruitful) classroom discussions about Mormonism after the subject would come in class and the teacher would discover I was Mormon, and therefore became the focus of the discussion. Other times it would come in the form of other students asking me if I wore funny underwear or if my dad had lots of wives, and usually wasn't hostile in nature but made me feel pretty ostracized or defensive. And unfortunately I would get someone assuring me their pastor said I was going to hell, or accusing me of being in a cult, or offended that I could possibly be a Mormon when Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/Some other church figure said/did X without realizing that being Mormon for many people is as much a part of their cultural makeup and heritage as it is their religious belief, nor did I, an individual Mormon, of high school age, completely understand my own personal views, let alone be able to answer for everything ever uttered in the realm of Mormonism (which still is the case, now that I'm older). I found I bonded quite a bit with the handful of Muslim, Jewish, and Atheist kids as they were also in the minority and felt on the outs at times in my school. It probably also has to do with the 2 year missions many Mormons serve. It's a very unique and strange experience that opens your eyes to the world in a way that is hard to do otherwise. Because its missionary work people may assume the opposite, but for me, serving as a Mormon missionary in Japan made me realize how much I didn't know about people and the world, and the depth and breadth of human culture and individuality. It made me re-contextualize my beliefs and consider what I truly believed and what I had only been telling myself I believed. I think this is in part the reason why there are a decent number of Mormons who serve missions for two years and then eventually move away from the church. But for those who don't it provides an opportunity to learn about and get to know other spiritual and cultural perspectives that is hard to match.

warent 7y ago

It's interesting because I've always perceived Mormonism (at least the dogmatic kind) as being intolerant given its history of racism and sexism. I suppose a lot has changed over the years, although I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years

samatman 7y ago
Neither race nor sex are beliefs, so that wouldn't be in contradiction to the comment you're replying to. I have no opinion on whether Mormons are racist, sexist, or tolerant of different beliefs. My limited experience with them suggests that they're easy-going and work hard, that's about all I've got.
paulddraper 7y ago
> I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years You live in Boise. So... I know many black Mormons, but only in places with a significant black population. FWIW, Utah had a black LDS Congresswomen for the past several years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Love
- darksaints 7y ago
  As a former Mormon, black mormons were so rare that they were treated like celebrities.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    Where did you live? The LDS Church is headquarted in Utah, and the whole state is literally 1% black. I'm a Mormon and grew up in Florida, and the LDS Church had a typical blend for a "mostly white church." (Realize that virtually every church has a clear racial majority of some kind.)
    - darksaints 7y ago
      In California. There were two black families, a total of five people, in our stake with over 1000 active members.
snuxoll 7y ago
> I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years Boisean myself, it’s not exactly like we have much diversity here to begin with - on any given day it feels I’m as likely to spot a non-Caucasian individual as I am a unicorn. That said, I’ve known plenty of LDS members over my life, and just like any religious group you can see ones that are actually tolerant of other beliefs and ones that put on a mask and speak differently behind your back. Then there’s the ones that would speak poorly directly to your face.
jacurtis 7y ago
This is largely because up until 1976 the Mormon church didn't allow Black members into its temples or to receive the priesthood (which is an essential step within Mormonism). Imagine joining and/or believing in a church that said "because you are black, you can't go to our glorious temples that we talk so much about. And you can't go to the highest form of heaven because you are black." This is literally the way it was (not exaggerating whatsoever). Luckily the NCAAP started to attack the church since they were one of the most blatantly open racist institutions going into the 1980s. The leadership of the church realized they wouldn't win this fight and changed the rules.

tomrod 7y ago

Exmormon here who has spent significant time with relatively larger names in that org. No, Clay was pretty unique in my view. With due respect to him, the tolerance of conflicting belief often portrayed by his co-adherents is typically extended as a proselytizing or marketing tactic and isn't offered to former Mormon congregants terribly often (see reddit.com/r/exmormon for thousands of documented experiences, or the treatment of John Dehlin, Juanita Brooks, or Sam Young).

jjeaff 7y ago
Marketing tactic or not, if that is the behavior, that's the behavior, it's unfair to ascribe intentions and discount the behavior. There are definitely some LDS that fall into the trap of taking offense when someone leaves the religion and then don't treat that person well. They take it as a personal slight that someone else is claiming their religion is wrong. Either by actions or in words. But I have also noticed that many ex-mormons are like vegans. They want to tell everyone about it and preach to everyone else that is still "eating meat". There are also quite a few that are extra sensitive and seem to try to make themselves feel better by bashing their ex-religion and those that are still adherents.
- tomrod 7y ago
  Look up Heartsell[0][1] sometime. Bonneville Communications is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mormon church. They attempted to sell inclusion and heartfelt feelings as a marketing strategy. They got caught the first time and it was minorly bad PR. They haven't been caught since. Note this is what the central organization does, of which most of the congregants are naive or deliberately uninformed. When I taught missionaries how to be Mormon missionaries several decades ago, "BRT" was part of the sales principles--build a relationship of trust. Why? To get people to buy what you're selling. This is also taught to congregants not actively serving missions, though not as deeply. Consider the calls of "Every member a missionary" (McKay, 1960s), "Lengthen your stride" (Kimball, 1980s), "Hasten the work" (Bednar, 2010s) where membership is exhorted to use sales practices on their neighbors. It's not ascribing bad motives or pretending to know what motivated people, it's having grown up in it and now seeing it outside the organization, objectively and after years of therapy and deprogramming. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20150219201604/http://www.bonneville.com/?nid=32 https://web.archive.org/web/20150219201604/http://www.bonnev... [1] http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression250.mp3 http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression250.mp...

paulddraper 7y ago

As with many religions, "tolerance" is a sensitive issue: blacks, women, LGBT. But yes, there is the stereotype of a humble/reserved successful Mormon businessman. (E.g. I'd put Mitt Romney in that category too)

daxorid 7y ago
The LDS Church put its "racist" past behind itself fairly easily because the "Mark of Cain" canard was trivial to dismiss as misinterpretation. LGBT acceptance will be a much, much tougher slog for them, given the central and critical importance that eternal families play in its doctrine and view of spiritual progression.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  Indeed; I doubt LGBT will ever be "accepted" (that is, esteemed as virtuous) by the LDS Church. As you said, it runs directly contrary to core doctrines.
- ksenzee 7y ago
  It'll be tougher and probably take longer, but there's no real reason it can't happen. You'll notice there's nothing in the Book of Mormon about LGBTQ+ issues. Everything church leaders have said about it is quoting either the Bible or each other. I predict that eventually they'll quit talking about it (like they quit talking about birth control and working moms). There will be a period of live and let live, where gay couples can't get sealed in the temple but are welcome at church and nobody thinks any less of them, and trans kids transition and nobody pitches a fit. And eventually they'll announce a revelation that same-sex marriages are ordained of God, a bunch of fundamentalists will leave the church, and we'll be caught up with 2019 morals (in 2047 or whenever it is).
wahern 7y ago
Not many religions in the U.S. have tolerance issues with "blacks" or "women", per se. The LDS church was unique in that regard. But to be fair, that aspect seems to have been sincerely discarded. What lingers is the uncomfortable landscape it finds itself in, and given the background racial landscape in the U.S., I'm sure it'll be an especially long journey out of that wilderness.

dorian-graph 7y ago

I’ve found it to be fairly true/common with LDS people. A lot of the foundational beliefs and programs in the church around the family, and about having balance. Last year the Sabbath day service was shortened an hour from 3 to 2, with one of the purposes to reduce the time away from family.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

From someone who lived in Utah for 20+ years and whose stepfamily are all Mormon, I wouldn't think of tolerance as one of the faith's defining characteristics. Although the intolerance often manifests itself as the kind of fake niceness found in movies when an old lady character needs to belittle someone with a sweet smile or calmly shut them out of polite society, not the fire breathing intolerance that wants to wage holy war.

dorian-graph 7y ago
> From someone who lived in Utah for 20+ years Members in Utah are different to members outside of Utah, haha.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  yeah that's pretty well known too. proximity to the prophet I suppose.
  - mrkstu 7y ago
    I'd say its mostly just majority in-group dynamics that you'd find anywhere that a majority shared any characteristic. That combined with well intentioned missionary zeal will of course cause issues. That said, the Salt Lake Valley is now under 50% LDS- the previous Mayor is Lesbian and its pretty progressive generally.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    More like proximity to each other (and being a huge majority of the population). See also: echo chambers, which are probably a societal plague more than anything.

ashton314 7y ago

As with every religion, the faithfulness of its adherents to the religion’s principles varies from person to person. But certainly the ideal that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches is exactly that: humility, compassion, and tolerance, combined with courage to do what is right regardless of the circumstances. At least for members of the church living in Utah, many (no not all!) have some pioneer heritage. We frequently remind ourselves that persecution is a terrible thing and that we must be tolerant and respectful of other’s beliefs.

bart_spoon 7y ago

As a Mormon myself, I will be the first to say that there can and are plenty of Mormons who are not what I would consider tolerant. But on the whole, I think we are relatively tolerant in regards to other faiths and spiritual beliefs, in large part for the reason you state. I grew up in an area of the country without many Mormons, and was perhaps one of a dozen Mormon kids in a high school of well over a thousand students. I wouldn't say I was ever bullied over my religion in the traditional sense, I found it to be a pretty consistent source of discomfort and a feeling of being an "other". Often it could be innocuous (and often very fruitful) classroom discussions about Mormonism after the subject would come in class and the teacher would discover I was Mormon, and therefore became the focus of the discussion. Other times it would come in the form of other students asking me if I wore funny underwear or if my dad had lots of wives, and usually wasn't hostile in nature but made me feel pretty ostracized or defensive. And unfortunately I would get someone assuring me their pastor said I was going to hell, or accusing me of being in a cult, or offended that I could possibly be a Mormon when Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/Some other church figure said/did X without realizing that being Mormon for many people is as much a part of their cultural makeup and heritage as it is their religious belief, nor did I, an individual Mormon, of high school age, completely understand my own personal views, let alone be able to answer for everything ever uttered in the realm of Mormonism (which still is the case, now that I'm older). I found I bonded quite a bit with the handful of Muslim, Jewish, and Atheist kids as they were also in the minority and felt on the outs at times in my school. It probably also has to do with the 2 year missions many Mormons serve. It's a very unique and strange experience that opens your eyes to the world in a way that is hard to do otherwise. Because its missionary work people may assume the opposite, but for me, serving as a Mormon missionary in Japan made me realize how much I didn't know about people and the world, and the depth and breadth of human culture and individuality. It made me re-contextualize my beliefs and consider what I truly believed and what I had only been telling myself I believed. I think this is in part the reason why there are a decent number of Mormons who serve missions for two years and then eventually move away from the church. But for those who don't it provides an opportunity to learn about and get to know other spiritual and cultural perspectives that is hard to match.