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Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

156 points by seanMeverett 16y ago

I've ready every HN post for the past few years, but have only commented on less than 10. This is also my first submission. I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago. So the question is? How many of you soak up all this knowledge like it's nicotine but don't comment much or post at all? I suppose if you're really like me, you actually won't comment on this thread at all, LOL. It's a paradoxical enigma, or something like that...

us 16y ago
I've been on here for the past few years as well but more recently started this account and in the past three days (literally speaking) have been trying to make an effort to comment and help out as much as possible to the HN community. I haven't posted anything yet but may soon sometime in the near future when I have something of value to provide. I know a few others that don't even have accounts that just come on here to read. It's not uncommon.
- Mz 16y ago
  Last figure I heard was 80K unique visitors a day. I doubt there are anywhere near that many accounts and certainly not anywhere near that many accounts routinely posting. So 'not uncommon' is probably a vast understatement.
wallflower 16y ago
I lurked for about a year before I posted. Don't do it :) It's very addictive once you start amassing bits of attention. Chicago has an excellent reputation!
citricsquid 16y ago
I comment, but add no value, does that count? We're all leeches! :p
- EwanG 16y ago
  Guess the questions is, what determines if you've "added value". Certainly there is value in adding to information (said article talks about Y, but you might also want to consider Z depending on your application), but there is also value in adding entertainment (at least the RIAA and MPAA think so), and even a well executed troll or Meme addition can be of some value to some people. So I wouldn't presume that you are not adding value unless you just enjoy putting yourself down (in which case you are still adding value to some folks I am sure). :-)
  - frevd 16y ago
    Given the topic of this discussion any type of answer counts, right? But by the way, interesting concept of anti-value. I'm sure Information Theory has got something to say about creation ex nihilo.
frevd 16y ago
lol - you're not alone ;]. see, i'm here for 800 days now but stopped commenting on most of the threads long ago when I realized that my views are somewhat diametrically different and would not be accepted easily by those so more wise and better connected than my dumb self. they installed a nice feedback mechanism that effectively limits my input - whenever I post something I must fear ridiculous downvoting by those higher priviledged clergy folks. I guess that keeps the platform at a common standard, unfortunately I have not much to say at that point.. and I know some more people that do not post a single response, people much brighter than me. Not everybody communicates at the same rate, though.
- Mz 16y ago
  I'm a former homemaker and the only coding I know is a little (x)html and css, so I am very much a demographic outlier for this forum. Plus, my views tend to not quite fit in anywhere I go. Prompt feedback, like votes and comments, can be a mechanism for honing your communication skills. Presentation can go a long way towards making it palatable to express an opposing point of view. You probably won't get a lot of upvotes for it. But you don't necessarily have to be downvoted into oblivion either. Attitude towards such things can make a big difference. :-)
  - frevd 16y ago
    fortunately this is not a strict coders' forum as far as i'm concerned - i appreciate all kinds of people with varying experience from diverse sectors, after all this is what information exchange is about, and more variance adds to a broader and more objective view, lots of fun and more information (and entropy for that matter). in fact i don't even believe there is a specific topic other than things that are obviously very interesting to a certain group of people. as for my communication skills - i think i have none, and despite my earlier statement being more a lame excuse for my lazyness to communicate, I'm kind of proud of being disconnected and I somewhat aim for provocations, since all I care about is rationally and deliberately looking at things from a different and unique perspective, since i believe this kind of contribution to be of value, even if it might appear naive or if i'm slashing the common ground or if i don't point out purpose. but since english is not my native tongue I'm not really successful at communicating sarcasm in a rhetorical way. so please don't vote for me since i'm not used to that :p.
theprodigy 16y ago
I think there is a lot of people who just lurk around and read everything, that is ok, but if you participate in discussion I think you will definitely learn a lot more. Google cone of learning.
- notyourwork 16y ago
  "Google cone of learning." I am not familiar with this phrase. Can someone explain?
  - EwanG 16y ago
    On the off chance you're serious (and I know folks sometimes have a hard time differentiating between very subtle sarcasm and true newbiehood): You are being directed to go to Google (or other search engine of choice) and enter the phrase "Cone of Learning". You should get a result similar to the following: http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8...
    - JonnieCache 16y ago
      To be fair it is possible to parse google as a noun in that sentence. It reads a bit like an item in an RPG. Google Cone of Haste +3
      - notyourwork 16y ago
        Precisely.
      - MrDunham 16y ago
        Actually that's how I read it too - even though being told to "google" something is by no means new to me. The google cone of haste, I like that.
      - mcantor 16y ago
        Ironically, this is somewhat related to the "grammar & writing style" debate raging in another thread on this very post. If the root poster had written: Google "Cone of Learning" It would not have been so ambiguous!
ireadzalot 16y ago
Sometimes I don't comment because the other comments seems so well-thought-out and expertly laid out. Level of knowledge of some HN commenters is almost intimidating sometimes.
- orls 16y ago
  Same -- it's taken me almost two years of reading HN before actually signing up, because everything I feel like saying has normaly already been said much better than I could.
- cmoylan 16y ago
  Same for me. I find that someone usually says exactly what I was thinking, but phrases it 10x better.
jparicka 16y ago
i won't comment
- tomrod 16y ago
  "One of us tells the truth, and one of us always lies."
kaeluka 16y ago
Its my first post here - still I am a very active reader.
tomrod 16y ago
I comment more than I should, and soak up an enormous amount of intellectual capital I now employ. Thanks, great minds!
pasbesoin 16y ago
I try to comment when I have something of value to add, that has not already been contributed. Mostly information. To a self-imposed limited extend, a bit of anecdote and/or humor. [1] The latter usually only in accompaniment to information. I support the original attitude that pervaded HN, that karma is about surfacing interesting information. It's not personal, nor should it be. Personal relationships do develop here, but not as a direct function of karma (I'm sure karma plays some role, inevitably, due to visibility and so discovery.) In short, what would the other person want to know? (That's "want", not "should", the latter being a slippery slope.) Keeping in mind the composition and goals of the community, this makes participating pretty straight forward. -- 1 Maybe I've been veering too far in this direction, lately.
- mikecarlucci 16y ago
  I agree. If I feel I can add something of value to the discussion, including occasional humor, I'll chime in. I call it the Mr. Ed principle.
charleso 16y ago
Active reader here, but I avoid commenting. Whenever I do, I seem to find myself caring too much about the responses. This leads me to returning again and again to a thread I've already learned from and replying to responses in an attempt to clarify my position. Before I know it, a half-hour has passed to no benefit. Since arrows tend to be clicked to reflect a worldview which conforms to a reader's own and not to promote posts of substance, I find the result is more poking a hive-mind than learning through discussion. That agitates me far more than it should and, for myself, it's best by far to simply lurk.
- markkat 16y ago
  I agree about getting too involved in the responses. We are strange creatures. :)
noig3 16y ago
Hey Sean. Are you in San Francisco? Do you want to start a company? I will be moving to San Jose in a couple of weeks. Maybe we could just hang out. I could use some friends.
- seanMeverett 16y ago
  Hi there and thanks for the shout out! Unfortunately, I'm knee deep in my own startup these days but would love to chat offline anytime and throw ideas around. You can link through to my profile, feel free to shoot me an email.
keen 16y ago
"I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA" I wish society (as a whole) would give people the same amount of credit for this kind of learning as a degree.
b3n 16y ago
I've been on HN for years and read it daily, but I comment very rarely. I can't answer your question but I suspect there are a lot of others like us. Perhaps some traffic stats would shed light on the number of lurkers vs contributors.
zwadia 16y ago
I feel I add value. But gravity here loves me much. Happy V-day HN.
shareme 16y ago
seanMeverette.. What Chicago startup did you end founding or joining?
- seanMeverett 16y ago
  I've founded a few, would be happy to chat more about it and what you're working on offline :)
abest 16y ago
I am in the exact same boat. I visit HN 10 times a day, but this is my very first comment here.
david_p 16y ago
Same here. I almost never comment or post. I learn/read a lot here and mostly don't think of a contribution worth posting. I actually think that most comments add more noise than information, and therefore decrease the value of a thread as a whole. This get worse as commenting gets easier, because easier posting means more comments, but most people don't actually have something interesting to say/write. Information gets diluted and less accessible/visible. In fact, this applies to the whole Internet and I sometimes wonder how much time it would have taken to learn the same things I learned while browsing through tech-related blogs by, for example, reading books (which are, often, denser in terms of information).
cfaubell 16y ago
> How many of you soak up all this knowledge like it's nicotine but don't comment much or post at all? That perfectly describes my relationship with Hacker News. As another first time commentor but long time lurker, I'd like to thank those of you who do comment. You've created a truly great resource.
- jfields 16y ago
  My relationship with Hacker News is also much like this. I have made exactly three comments before this one, and they were almost a year ago. If not for those, I might not have even created an account here. I just have the type of personality that enjoys taking in knowledge more than discussing it. My account at Less Wrong is similarly neglected. I often wonder how many others (on both sites) do what I do.
ww520 16y ago
I used to comment but found that I got dragged into heated "discussions" that were big time sink. I then tried short responses/comments, attempting to leave the investigation part as homework for the interested readers, but I was called as troll and asked to clarify things in long posts again. Also similar to frevd's case, my points of view don't usually align with the mainstream trends in HN. I just rather get my stuff done than spending time arguing with people online.
xilun0 16y ago
I haven't be scammed of $100,000 yet so I guess I'm not completely like you :p
mvid 16y ago
i have shattered the paradox
lhnz 16y ago
I consider myself technical but I can't comment here about that kind of thing since I will not be knowledgeable enough to hold my own... I feel like I'm just about intelligent enough for other non-technical discussions. I actually agree, I find it a lot easier to learn here than I did at University. I think it's because I'm mixing with people that care about knowledge.
peteypao 16y ago
Is an MBA really that raw of a deal??
- havoc2005 16y ago
  If you don't put it to good use. I just graduated college myself and put off any thoughts of going back for a year or two to see what I can make of my free time. 4 months later and I'm almost a CISSP in the security field. Now I feel as though I need to get back in touch with the HN community and maybe start networking better.
mkramlich 16y ago
info sponge here too. plus agree think you can acquire edu approx equiv to an MBA via all the free and cheap info and resources avail on the web and in libraries. key is to put it all to use!
zackattack 16y ago
Are you serious? "I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago." You weren't out meeting people and making awesome connections? You didn't build relationships with the brilliant professors? I am shocked by the content of your post. What have you learned on Hacker News? And then what did you learn at Booth? I would pay to read that write-up.
- PaulHoule 16y ago
  Not everybody gets the most out of being at an Elite university. My family comes from an ethnically Catholic background, you know, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, many of the people who came to the U.S. fleeing the aftermath of WWII, members of the surplus humanity whose livelihood was destroyed by the mechanization of agriculture in the early half of the twentieth century. In the 1960's and 1970's, in a time when it became unfashionable to attack blacks and indigenous persons, academics such as Mark Granovetter and Edward C. Banfield were writing treatises about the inferiority of traditionally Catholic ethnic groups. And I'll just say that in graduate school, people from these backgrounds find there is no organization for their "national advancement" or "anti-defamation" and they'll be left to their own devices to understand why certain doors just aren't quite open to them. [Disclaimer: the author of this post has no relationship to the Catholic Church other than having many family and friends who are members, and in fact, is a pagan]
  - brianmckenzie 16y ago
    I don't know if this is still the case, but Catholics were the single largest religious group at the University of Chicago when I was there in the late 90's.
- seanMeverett 16y ago
  My issue with the formal academic training is that it teaches you to be an academic, not a practitioner. I feel that if you want to learn how to start a company, then start a company. If you want to become an academic, go to school. Now, I'm probably a rare case because I grew up in management consulting and have been an entrepreneur since I was 8 years old so I feel that it's not the education that's important, it's what you do with it that is. To that end, I love seeing folks in this HN startup "tribe" have an idea that others may think is silly, pour their blood, sweat, and tears into and maybe it works out. Or maybe it doesn't. I've always said, "we'll either all end up in a mansion or a cardboard box, but we'll have a blast along the way". That pretty much sums up what it means to be an entrepreneur to me. Meet like minded people trying to make the world a better place, and maybe make a little cash along the way. So kudos to all of us kids playing around in the sandbox trying to create a bit of the future, today.
ericbrunstad 16y ago
First comment.
- rphlx 16y ago
  This is why we need downvotes.
  - havoc2005 16y ago
    I would downvote your downvote
  - frevd 16y ago
    Wouldn't it be more informative if we had separate up & down vote stats here instead of the collapsing aggregate function?
pschlump 16y ago
I almost never comment - it takes time and I am busy. I am doing another startup after having been on vacation for 8 years. How the world has changed! 8 years since I sold my last business and I am learning all over. HN is a faucet of knowledge on turned on full boar. I have been reading and learning like crazy!
- naithemilkman 16y ago
  Would be interesting to know what your last business was about. Must have had a happy ending for you to have spent the last 8 years vacationing?
raphael_lee 16y ago
first comment. What I like about this place is the various constructive points of view from the community on top of the conversation, information and URL provided. The votes/points help in my digestion too.
positr0n 16y ago
I rarely comment because I'm just a student, and I'm not even going to go in to start ups. I don't feel like I can add much useful here.
omni5ci 16y ago
I know exactly how you feel, I'm sort of embarrassed by the fact that I only (somewhat) recently signed up because of it. I'm trying to change and start commenting more, so here I am.
Joshim5 16y ago
One of the first posts I've commented on even though I read too many posts here. :)
IsaacL 16y ago
I only comment occasionally. I comment even less on other sites I frequent, like reddit (before I quit), lesswrong and ribbonfarm. I normally only comment when I have a point I really want to make, and no-one else has made that point already. I'd guess there's a lot of people like you - most online communities have a very disproportionate amount of lurkers.
chanux 16y ago
OK, I read HN a lot, comment and post a bit more than 'some'. But lately I was thinking about this quote. Information is not knowledge. ~Einstein
faitswulff 16y ago
I thought this was a parody of /r/DoesAnybodyElse at first.
koichirose 16y ago
I'm like you: I've been an active reader for the past couple years, but I rarely comment. Sometimes I have stuff to say, but I'm afraid I'll spend the rest of the day coming back to HN and hope for acknowledgment and responses. This could be selfish, I know, especially when I really know something about a topic, but I can't help it.
profitbaron 16y ago
I've started using HN on an increasing basis recently, having been lurking for a while having, eventually got round to joining and starting to participate in the discussions. Although, I do have to agree that there is a great amount of information on here, especially in the Ask HN type threads.
scottw 16y ago
Your first submission has garnered nearly as many karma points than I've accumulated since I joined HN 3 years (and 1 day) ago.
nwp 16y ago
I have only recently discovered HN, and it has quickly become the most useful site I frequent. Up to now, however, I have not yet commented.
mohdismail 16y ago
sorry. but I just registered myself here. so, I kinda like yourself

Mz 16y ago
Of course it is not a strict coders forum. Even simply being female makes me very much a minority here and I have seen a number of posts from women who cite that as an obstacle to effective participation. I like getting a diversity of views and feedback/information. It is one of the reasons I work hard on coming across politely and respectfully when speaking with people who have strongly different views from mine: It is the only way I have found for such interactions to be really good opportunities for growth instead of pissing contests. Pissing contests rarely have any productive value. As for speaking English as a second language: Stating up front "please forgive my English" seems to work pretty well to smooth things over for some members here. Practicing your English will improve it, possibly quite a lot in a short time. (I have seen that with foreign friends who chose to speak with me in spite of sometimes having very poor English and me not knowing their language at all.) And I apologize if you don't actually want solutions. Many people don't. I am often annoying in that way. Peace.
- jarek 16y ago
  "As for speaking English as a second language: Stating up front "please forgive my English" seems to work pretty well to smooth things over for some members here." This isn't my discussion and so I apologize for potentially butting in, but being an ESL speaker myself it bothers me a bit to see ESL writers apologize for their English. I'm not sure if this is unique to those who are ESL themselves, but I find distinguishing between an ESL writer and a sloppy native writer trivial. If it's at a point where it causes problems communicating, we'll know it's because English isn't your first language, and we know the writer would rather not make these mistakes - no need to apologize. As for conveying sarcasm in short posts on the internet, the difficulty is far from limited to ESL writers.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Some people here are quite anal about grammar and spelling and do not seem to readily infer that someone is an ESL speaker. I come from a bicultural/bilingual home. English is my native language but I also am prone to imposing German-isms (for lack of a better word) onto my writing, especially when tired. I do this in spite of not growing up knowing much German. I'm generally pretty tolerant of individual quirks and of the acclimation process new people go through. Lots of people are not. I basically agree with you that they shouldn't need to apologize/explain but in some instances it does seem to help smooth things over. Peace.
  - mcantor 16y ago
    ... being an ESL speaker myself... I appreciate the "please forgive my English" notes, actually. I am a native English speaker, and I have no ability whatsoever to distinguish between ESL writers and sloppy natives. I certainly was not aware that frevd was not a native speaker until he mentioned it.
    - frevd 16y ago
      Well.. wow, I take that as a compliment. I should definitely read more HN comments though, to improve on my writing style (sorry, I got all my early English from coding and the rest from chats &c. (barely speaking a word even today), and those sources are undoubtedly not the best pool for poetry). I must say that many people here are surely right what serious contribution is about, i.e. involving serious commitment, not sloppiness, which certainly improves on content quality. However, if that scares away those of us who merely wanted to point out something without having the time for a proper pronounciation (especially non-natives), less a proof, it would be sad to lose their opinions. Unproven Intuitions and fun statements must be allowed as well, otherwise you'd lose some important flow here, and who can say what might inspire others, effectively. Prohibiting smileys and alike or limiting types of expressions through forced writing style can even mean worse, being contraproductive for the overall content submission. But surely there are better places for instant-talk.

SamReidHughes 16y ago

You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the reader in an organized manner. In your comment history, other posts have it worse, and your writing style and mannerisms make you seem like a nut-case. If your comments were written using normal sentences, that would not be the case. However, if you're talking about "higher privileged clergy folks" downvoting you, writing style won't help much on that front.

myusuf3 16y ago
At first I wanted to say true dat. I am now going to say, True that.
notyourwork 16y ago
English is nothing more than another vehicle humans use to communicate. For you to claim using proper grammar and well formed sentences of the english language is just a cop out to the point the OP was trying to make. Let me paraphrase in a grammar that is perhaps closer to on par with the level you seek: "I have spent a long time on hacker news. In fact I used to communicate with others on a regular basis but that ceased awhile ago. My views are probably considered extreme to most in the community and thus I chose not to comment due to the "instant karma" I would receive based on my view that the community would most likely as a whole disagree with. Additionally, I know some who are much more intelligent than myself and yet they never comment. They merely troll (troll is a non-negative attribute here) the site soaking up information and leaving nothing in return. " My opinion: the community is here to get down to business. Humor is pushed aside in most cases and discussions focus much more on the topic at hand. (No I am not claiming hacker news users do not have a sense of humor, I am trying to say that this community is driven by information and not jokes.) For those who would like this clarified: If you want jokes, digg, reddit, etc all exist, if you want information and perhaps a chance to learn a thing or two than hacker news is for you. Personally, this is why I regularly browse the site. I view hacker news as a geek's fantasy show and tell.
- frevd 16y ago
  you're right, I appreciate the honest words. i'm just having difficulties in being serious - this is a personal trait and part of my very way to learn since it enables me to stay distant and see more of the bigger picture, thus not easily changed. I'll try to be more serious however. also, since my english is rather poor, I apologize for my bad grammar and unstructured sentences.
  - krmmalik 16y ago
    Personally, even though i'm quite particular about punctuation, grammar and general writing etiquette i find your style to be more personable and therefore a hint of fresh air. After all, provided you can convey your thought and emotion to me successfully, that's all that matters right?
    - frevd 16y ago
      Thanks for the flowers. I'm even using my broken shift-key for you're reading pleasure (I'm particular too about all that although I also like the style of all-lower-case, but I understand that might not be obvious and seen as an insult). I'd really don't know if it's all that matters, but you might be right, I'll have a try. After all that's were emoticons might be of help as well (as a pro argument for their use ;).
  - JshWright 16y ago
    Just about every language out there that uses the Latin alphabet capitalizes the first letter of every sentence. The lack of capitalization in your posts makes it a bit harder for a lot of people to read them, regardless of your tone or lack of seriousness.
  - mcantor 16y ago
    It might be a good idea to mention that English is not your first language, at the beginning of your longer posts. For shorter posts, it is probably worth your time to spend an extra 1 or 2 minutes making sure the capitalization and grammar are correct. But, for longer posts, when you are expressing more complicated ideas, spending too much time reviewing your writing style would damage your train of thought. It would probably suffice to say, "Sorry if my English isn't so great." There's a HUGE difference between a native English speaker writing a thoughtless post with bad style, and a non-native English speaker writing a thoughtful post with bad style. I think a lot of HN people are sensitive to writing style because it's a useful way to decide whether or not you should bother reading something. If a comment is very poorly written, it is more likely (but not definite) that the content is also poorly imagined. The problem is when there are "false negatives" such as yourself--people who are carefully thinking through their ideas, but are not as well-versed in writing style. Help the community cut you some slack; advertise the fact that English is not your first language when you do not have the time or skill to make your posts perfect. :-)
- frevd 16y ago
  It seems all my comments appear as a blob, despite me adding line breaks. I'm not doing that on purpose, do I have to use a different system or editor in order to get more visual structure into it?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - trobertson 16y ago
    Hit enter twice. Like so.
  - frevd 16y ago
    Ah, I get it. Thank you. (replying to myself since reply function is deactivated at that level (as a feature))
    - Mz 16y ago
      It takes a few minutes for the "reply" button to appear. That threw me off for a while as well.
geoffw8 16y ago
> You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the reader in an organized manner. That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. It angers and disgusts me to think that 17 other people happen to agree with you. You guys (and I mean the HN "elite") try to avoid group thinking like its the plague, you believe you operate like the intelligent guys of the web but your reaction to that comment was disgusting and evident that your guilty of the same underlying thread that fuels racism and prejudice - difference. What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys - and a kid reluctantly comes up to you one day, and says "Hey, I'm pretty shy around here because I feel I don't fit in." Your response was "well, of course you don't kid, look at you, you dress like an idiot and you stink" - then you and your cronies all laugh. I used to really like HN, I used to enjoy the comments more than I did the articles at one point. But this has just become a place where people can split hairs, argue semantics, stroke their own ego's and do their best to feel self-important. Your comment is the epitome of my point. I can't believe you just grilled that dude because of how he types. I've met plenty of very, very wealthy and successful individuals to know that how you type has absolutely no connection to how much respect you give readers, and how much they think about their responses. The barrier to entry of participating on HN is not how you word, or begin your point - but the value you add.
- iuguy 16y ago
  > That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. And they say civility's dropped on HN.
  - geoffw8 16y ago
    someones not allowed to say bs?
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      That's bullshit.
glenjamin 16y ago
It seems to me that this argument boils down to whether a comment on HN is more akin to conversation (ie. somewhat less formal), or information. My personal opinion is that with the rise of globalisation and non-native English's prevalence on the internet, any use of language that is understandable and unambiguous is good enough for discourse.

gnaritas 16y ago

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot of people who won't even read what you have to say if the writing is lazy and disrespectful to the reader.

geoffw8 16y ago
Not that I do, but what if I said I had learning difficulties? Or never went to school. Your saying I'm not allowed to contribute?
- gnaritas 16y ago
  Nowhere did I say or imply that, I simply said there are quite a few people who won't read sloppy writing; that's a simple statement of fact. If you want to be read by the widest audience, then consider the reader rather than what's easiest for you.
mkr-hn 16y ago
I think words like "proper" are what throw a lot of people. It brings up images of a grumpy English teacher. But natural language is like a programming language. If you start tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place, it won't compile, and it won't make much sense. Things like grammar and spelling are the syntax of natural language, and failing to make sure you're close to the norm is a good way to throw an exception. Not as concise as "proper" or "correct," but less likely to start an argument.
- jarek 16y ago
  The root comment compiled perfectly. The grammar was understandable and the logic reasonably sound. The only deviations from the gold standard of natural English are: 1) "lol"; 2) ";]"; 3) lack of capitalization on some words. That is much closer to whitespace conventions than tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place.
  - mkr-hn 16y ago
    I think #3 is the sticking point. I can read it, but a lifetime of reading has trained me to use capitalization past a period and space as a prompt to some sort of change. The lack of it makes a paragraph read like an unbroken sentence to me. It slows me down considerably. I'm not defending or agreeing with the complaint, just trying to find the reasoning behind one of the positions. I think people should step back and see what's actually bothering them about the writing (or if there's anything fundamentally bothersome at all).
    - jarek 16y ago
      I agree that the capitalization is a bit of a problem for the root, but at the same time I think SamReidHughes's reply was a vast overreaction. Looking back through the OP's comments per SamReidHughes's reference I agree they're not necessarily up to the HN prose standard but still nothing to go ballistic about.
  - frevd 16y ago
    To all of you - I'm used to capitalization (very much since I'm German and we capitalize every Noun), much less though do I know what to capitalize in English (I got so much angry comment in my phase of capitalizing everything i deemed important that I completely converted to an all-lower-case style). I also know everything about punctuation, having taken two typing courses and one in standardized letter writing. Despite all that, since I'm using CamelCase a lot and my shift keys have suffered from that so much that I have to press them forcedly, I try to limit their use whereever possible (this location just opted out of it ;).
rdouble 16y ago
fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news
- mcantor 16y ago
  The rest of us are not Fred Wilson.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  Then he's being lazy, but if you look at his blog, he most certainly does.
markkat 16y ago
I have to disagree. Some very intelligent people struggle with writing. I can understand skipping a comment over poor grammar. But if you are going to vote, I think you ought to consider the content over the form.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  You don't have to be a good writer to know that sentences begin with capital letters and end with periods; children know that. Anyone who doesn't do that isn't having difficulty writing, they're simply being lazy and only thinking of what's easy for them rather than what's easy for the reader. Not being a good writer is simply no excuse.
Mz 16y ago
I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this type of mistake, which I never made in French. Ironically, it was actually a reflection of his higher fluency. As for the general topic of this sub-thread: I really don't have any problem with the tendency on this forum to correct/critique someone's grammar or spelling. I just think how it is done matters. I can't wrap my brain around claiming that good grammar and spelling matter tons while delivering it with contempt, disrespect, hostility and general bad manners like those are just fine (which I have seen done quite a few times on HN). I would rather talk to someone who makes spelling and grammar errors but has manners than someone whose writing is impeccable but you can just feel them sneering down their nose at you. I didn't think the opening post from SamReidHughes really did that, though it wasn't all warm-fuzziness either. So I opted to assume it was "constructive feedback" given with good intentions even though it wasn't the warmest, most convivial delivery. But then I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. It takes two to make good communication happen. It isn't just about what one person does.
- mcantor 16y ago
  ... I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying. In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly. In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks with unexpected kindness, which usually confuses and annoys them in turn. It's win/win, you see!
  - Mz 16y ago
    Touche. And may you be an excellent influence on the forum. Have an upvote.

InclinedPlane 16y ago

It's "you're guilty", not "your guilty". >_> Seriously though, calm down. Both your post and the post you're referring to have plenty of upvotes, which is a strong indication that they are not unwelcome contributions to HN. Personally I think it's important to maintain civility, writing quality, and professionalism in an online discussion, and I'm glad that HN values that. It's a lubricant that enables more productive, more rational, more open discussion without getting distracted by juvenile things like distracting humor and emotionally charged debate (as when someone lumps an entire group of people together, makes generalizations about them, and compares them to racists). HN is still one of the few places on the intertrontubes where it's possible to have a mature, rational discussion. If you find someplace better, by all means let everyone know.

geoffw8 16y ago
I agree with all of your points, except one - when I'm doing something of leisure, i.e. commenting on hacker news, I actually don't think about my grammar or spelling and nor will I begin to. As far as I'm concerned, people pulling people up on their spelling and grammar is a step to far. Edit: Spelling and grammer excellence isn't in the guidelines http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mcantor 16y ago
  I don't think anybody at Hacker News really begrudges your leisurely writing practices. However, it seems like you feel entitled to have your opinions treated equally despite the fact that you are presenting them differently. This is probably why many of your comments are getting downvoted. I am sure that you and posters such as frevd are cool, intelligent dudes; but most members of the HN community value conventional writing style. It's not in the guidelines because it is something that comes from the members of the community themselves. By intentionally eschewing the rules of writing, you are signalling to the community that you are not willing to "meet them in the middle", so to speak. If the majority of HN posters did not care about writing style, this situation would be reversed. But, c'est la vie.
  - tomrod 16y ago
    I disagree, politely, that most HN readers find no issues with writing style. I base this on a subsample of one and extrapolate. wink wink Seriously though, HN isn't Reddit or Digg. I feel a little class and care can reasonably be expected from the informed commentator.

SamReidHughes 16y ago

> Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. Actually it means a lot. When you read, your neurons get tingled. How this happens is affected by writing style. Not everybody has the time or energy to be a hyperrationalist information absorber that processes data into the same thing irrespective of the order and manner it arrives. edit: I think you've misinterpreted my post if you think I said anything about whether his writing style is bad -- I've just said that it causes people to react a certain way. (Though, if you want me to declare which side I'm on on that matter of whether it's objectively bad, it's the opposite of yours.)

geoffw8 16y ago
You've missed your own point. By NOTHING, I meant that it "has absolutely no connection to how much respect [he] give[s] readers, and how much [he] think[s] about [his] responses." He just might not be so hot on English, it doesn't mean he hasn't considered what he's going to say.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
kraggp 16y ago
The pseudo-intellectualism that permeates this board is a little appalling. I can certainly assure you that C-level executives across Silicon Valley backed by the strongest VCs and beyond write in a much less formal manner than most people on HN. Nothing wrong with that.
- mcantor 16y ago
  Context is very important, though. I don't think anyone is claiming that there is a correlation between intelligence and writing ability; only that within the context of HN comments from the majority of posters, style is important.
- mryall 16y ago
  Writing in clear understandable language and suggesting others do the same isn't "pseudo-intellectualism". It's just common sense. If you want your thoughts to be understood and respected, choose appropriate language to express them. What people use in frequent communication with their friends or colleagues is likely to be different to that used on a public message board which brings together people from many different backgrounds for discussion of "deeply interesting" topics.
- khafra 16y ago
  I suggest a study program in social signaling, but I'll summarize the relevant part: People of unknown status must provide a signal that their status is appropriate enough to warrant respect and attention: if you're taking your Valentine's date to a Michelin 3-star restaurant, you wear your best clothes. People of known high status have the capability of signaling their status in a seemingly perverse way: by countersignaling. When a movie star shows up to a Michelin 3-star restaurant, he wears jeans and a faded t-shirt to show that he's high-status enough to break convention there. tl;dr: C-level execs backed by the strongest VCs have earned the right to write informally and still be taken seriously. Most of us have not.

JesseAldridge 16y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) Attention is a scarce resource. Acting like a fool is correlated with actually being a fool. People are less likely to take a comment seriously when a cursory examination suggests that it's a waste of space. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

kraggp 16y ago
Are you serious? Have you worked in a board room at a Fortune 500 company? Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses. Do you know how Steve Jobs writes? Now multiply that across 500 organizations of the biggest corporations in America and the shoddy writing will certainly shock you if you think "people are less likely to take a comment seriously" because their sentences aren't grammatically-correct. Calling someone a fool because they write differently from you is absurd. Ad hominem attacks don't belong on HN.
- JesseAldridge 16y ago
  Being CEO of a Fortune 500 is such a strong signal of competence that you don't need any others. Ad hominem is useful in the real world because one's credibility impacts the probability that what they say is accurate.
  - IsaacL 16y ago
    I agree. It might sometimes be a status thing, as in, "I'm so important that I don't need to spellcheck my emails to you."
- muhfuhkuh 16y ago
  "Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses." I've been at 3 F500 companies in my 20 years of work, and where those F500 have even changed CEOs once or twice. The only time a CEO has ever sent anything grammatically or syntactically incorrect is when he's paging IT from his cellphone to fix something on the Executive floor. Everything else is carefully crafted and presented, especially internal memoranda. Being a CEO is more than just promoting synergy like a boss; communication (including and especially writing) is almost everything else.
- prawn 16y ago
  If you're the one with the money/power, you probably get a little leeway in your dress and writing.