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There is probably room for specialization in the car industry: - small, light, efficient, cheap 1 or 2 seater for commuting - 5 or 6 seater with cargo for hol

There is probably room for specialization in the car industry: - small, light, efficient, cheap 1 or 2 seater for commuting - 5 or 6 seater with cargo for holidays: little automation and noisy but only used 1 month in a year The cost for both may be still lower than a luxury "bundle" and more energy efficient overall. But I think the main problem with the car industry, is that if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars, they will all look the same, and nobody will by them. And if they make efficient, low power and cheap cars nobody will buy the powerful and expensive ones. So marketing dictates: make distinctive and inefficient cars, make cheap and low power models stunningly inefficient.

leetcrew 7y ago
> But I think the main problem with the car industry, is that if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars, they will all look the same, and nobody will by them. I don't think this is as true as people think. look at high-end sports cars. they're all designed for low drag (although downforce components add some of that back) but they have very distinctive designs. other than the badges and grilles, most economy sedans already look pretty much the same anyway. > And if they make efficient, low power and cheap cars nobody will buy the powerful and expensive ones. I don't think this is true either. cars like the Honda fit already exist, but that doesn't stop people from buying Porsches. anecdotally, I've noticed something of a bimodal distribution in car buyers. people either buy the cheapest thing that fits their use case or the nicest car they can afford. I don't see why that would change if the bottom went even lower.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  There's a lot of room for improvement in aerodynamics of modern sedans. The bulbous front bodywork and large wheels that are in style are not good for aerodynamics. If we went back to the low hoods and 24" diameter tires of the early 90s then that would be a substantial improvement. Most subcompact hatches already do this because their boxy form factor is not that great for aerodynamics and they need to make it up somewhere.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I'm not saying current designs are optimal. rather, the current designs already look so similar to each other that "looking different" can't be a valid reason for not optimizing them further. I already can't tell many of them apart unless I'm already familiar with the model.
- jerome-jh 7y ago
  > look at high-end sports cars To my eyes, there is much less shape diversity in sports cars than customer cars. Sedans definitely look the same but is it the optimal shape? > And if they make efficient, low power and cheap cars nobody will buy the powerful and expensive ones. That applies especially to different motors for a given car model. Several times, I have seen the lower-end engine, although less powerful, smaller displacement, to have the same mileage as the more powerful engine of the same technology/generation. A fellow engineer who worked in the car industry confirmed me (although not that clearly, because it is a sensitive subject), that engines for the low-end range can be sold with a sub-optimal mapping.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > To my eyes, there is much less shape diversity in sports cars than customer cars. Sedans definitely look the same but is it the optimal shape? depends what you mean. to be clear, I'm comparing cars of the same type (obviously minivans look very different from pickup trucks). maybe it's because I'm an enthusiast, but I would never confuse a Ferrari for a Porsche. the design language is totally different. on the other hand, I might need to look at the badge to know whether a midsize sedan is a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan.
pif 7y ago
> if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars... I chose my last car exactly because it was NOT aerodynamically efficient: I want comfort in my car, anc confort means space, especially vertical space!
- jerome-jh 7y ago
  I should have said: aerodynamically optimized. Because definitely you may want/need vertical space but still have the overall shape optimized given the height.
  - pif 7y ago
    Not even! I don't like how curvy cars have gotten during the last decades. I hate how the side shape switched from a net horizontal-45°-horizontal[1] to a dome[2]! [1]: https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/ffa3ac8e-9b0d-5c41-e053-e250040a320d_011116b8-714b-4bb9-9f51-a0a384316a68.jpg/640x480.jpg https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/ffa3ac8... [2]: https://www.automotorinews.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/toyota-prius-mpv-300x216.jpg https://www.automotorinews.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/toy...
    - jerome-jh 7y ago
      And that's why the Prius is economical even on highways. Its mileage on highways is somewhat better than a SUV, hybrid or not, because of the shape.
pif 7y ago
I agree with you on the "cheap" side: if I could buy a few cheap motor vehicles, I'd use the smallest one for daily commutes and chores, and keep the big one for longer tours. If motorbikes were cheap, people could even buy two of them and use one between home and the local train station, and the other between the destination train station and work, thus reducing enormously the door-to-door time of the bus-train-bus combination. Imagine how much less traffic would flow on the highways, if people could use mass transit for the long part of the commute and private, fast transit for the first AND last miles...
thrower123 7y ago
> But I think the main problem with the car industry, is that if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars, they will all look the same We're already here, and have been for ten or fifteen years. The egg-car, min-maxed in the wind tunnel, is ubiquitous. The surest way to determine different models is the arrangement and shape of their tail lights.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>There is probably room for specialization in the car industry: Unless prices for new cars fall off a cliff or renting whatever you want whenever you want becomes stupidly convenient I don't think we'll see any more specialization. Specialization makes sense when you can have (either own or have easy access to) multiple specialized vehicles. If you're just gonna have easy access to one vehicle per working adult and you're going to shell out $20k+ for it then people are gonna buy a swiss army knife type vehicle (and in this day and age that means something on the hatch/wagon/crossover/suv spectrum).

leetcrew 7y ago

> But I think the main problem with the car industry, is that if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars, they will all look the same, and nobody will by them. I don't think this is as true as people think. look at high-end sports cars. they're all designed for low drag (although downforce components add some of that back) but they have very distinctive designs. other than the badges and grilles, most economy sedans already look pretty much the same anyway. > And if they make efficient, low power and cheap cars nobody will buy the powerful and expensive ones. I don't think this is true either. cars like the Honda fit already exist, but that doesn't stop people from buying Porsches. anecdotally, I've noticed something of a bimodal distribution in car buyers. people either buy the cheapest thing that fits their use case or the nicest car they can afford. I don't see why that would change if the bottom went even lower.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
There's a lot of room for improvement in aerodynamics of modern sedans. The bulbous front bodywork and large wheels that are in style are not good for aerodynamics. If we went back to the low hoods and 24" diameter tires of the early 90s then that would be a substantial improvement. Most subcompact hatches already do this because their boxy form factor is not that great for aerodynamics and they need to make it up somewhere.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  I'm not saying current designs are optimal. rather, the current designs already look so similar to each other that "looking different" can't be a valid reason for not optimizing them further. I already can't tell many of them apart unless I'm already familiar with the model.
jerome-jh 7y ago
> look at high-end sports cars To my eyes, there is much less shape diversity in sports cars than customer cars. Sedans definitely look the same but is it the optimal shape? > And if they make efficient, low power and cheap cars nobody will buy the powerful and expensive ones. That applies especially to different motors for a given car model. Several times, I have seen the lower-end engine, although less powerful, smaller displacement, to have the same mileage as the more powerful engine of the same technology/generation. A fellow engineer who worked in the car industry confirmed me (although not that clearly, because it is a sensitive subject), that engines for the low-end range can be sold with a sub-optimal mapping.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > To my eyes, there is much less shape diversity in sports cars than customer cars. Sedans definitely look the same but is it the optimal shape? depends what you mean. to be clear, I'm comparing cars of the same type (obviously minivans look very different from pickup trucks). maybe it's because I'm an enthusiast, but I would never confuse a Ferrari for a Porsche. the design language is totally different. on the other hand, I might need to look at the badge to know whether a midsize sedan is a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan.

pif 7y ago

> if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars... I chose my last car exactly because it was NOT aerodynamically efficient: I want comfort in my car, anc confort means space, especially vertical space!

jerome-jh 7y ago
I should have said: aerodynamically optimized. Because definitely you may want/need vertical space but still have the overall shape optimized given the height.
- pif 7y ago
  Not even! I don't like how curvy cars have gotten during the last decades. I hate how the side shape switched from a net horizontal-45°-horizontal[1] to a dome[2]! [1]: https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/ffa3ac8e-9b0d-5c41-e053-e250040a320d_011116b8-714b-4bb9-9f51-a0a384316a68.jpg/640x480.jpg https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/ffa3ac8... [2]: https://www.automotorinews.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/toyota-prius-mpv-300x216.jpg https://www.automotorinews.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/toy...
  - jerome-jh 7y ago
    And that's why the Prius is economical even on highways. Its mileage on highways is somewhat better than a SUV, hybrid or not, because of the shape.

pif 7y ago

I agree with you on the "cheap" side: if I could buy a few cheap motor vehicles, I'd use the smallest one for daily commutes and chores, and keep the big one for longer tours. If motorbikes were cheap, people could even buy two of them and use one between home and the local train station, and the other between the destination train station and work, thus reducing enormously the door-to-door time of the bus-train-bus combination. Imagine how much less traffic would flow on the highways, if people could use mass transit for the long part of the commute and private, fast transit for the first AND last miles...

thrower123 7y ago

> But I think the main problem with the car industry, is that if they start making aerodynamically efficient cars, they will all look the same We're already here, and have been for ten or fifteen years. The egg-car, min-maxed in the wind tunnel, is ubiquitous. The surest way to determine different models is the arrangement and shape of their tail lights.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>There is probably room for specialization in the car industry: Unless prices for new cars fall off a cliff or renting whatever you want whenever you want becomes stupidly convenient I don't think we'll see any more specialization. Specialization makes sense when you can have (either own or have easy access to) multiple specialized vehicles. If you're just gonna have easy access to one vehicle per working adult and you're going to shell out $20k+ for it then people are gonna buy a swiss army knife type vehicle (and in this day and age that means something on the hatch/wagon/crossover/suv spectrum).