4 ms·

20+ yrs ago Pharma was pushing doctors to use opioids more liberally since the manufactures said that they were safe for people that really needed it. Now we se

20+ yrs ago Pharma was pushing doctors to use opioids more liberally since the manufactures said that they were safe for people that really needed it. Now we see that that was a mistake. I suspect that we are heading in the same direction with pot. In the future, we will be looking back and wonder why we were not careful with the use of it. I think it should be legal but it should not be treated like its use has no consequences.

alphabettsy 7y ago
It’s not that something changed with opioids as a category, we’ve been using them forever. Drug companies made time release formulations of basically the same compounds and said they weren’t as addictive as the stuff we used before and that wasn’t true. In the US Doctors tend to do what the patient wants, which you would expect from a free-market healthcare system. This leads to patients often asking for medications, in addition to marketing reps incentivizing physicians who want to make their patients happy as quickly as possible. I don’t see a clear parallel.
jMyles 7y ago
One of the main advantages of cannabis as medicine is that it is so forgiving when used in its therapeutic range. It is the inverse of opioid drugs in this respect: opioids are very powerful, but can fairly easily cause death or dependence when used even in the lower end of their therapeutic range. Cannabis is much less powerful of course, but can be titrated easily because it has so little acute toxicity even at huge doses.
paulddraper 7y ago
One difference: it's impossible to die (immediately) from marijuana. Opiods? Yes. Asprin? Uh huh. Alcohol? Absolutely. Like tobacco, week can be harm you, but only over a long period of time.
- WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
  >One difference: it's impossible to die (immediately) from marijuana. You can overdose yourself with Cannabis Extracts. They are just as legal as the plant.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    > They are just as legal as the plant. Maybe they shouldn't be? IDK. What I do know is that it's impossible to overdose on marijuana leaf.
    - def8cefe 7y ago
      You smoke the flower of Cannabis, mot the leaves... so I guess you're even more likely correct.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
    Yeah. Sure. That's possible. But how probable? >The intragastric LD50 with the emulsion was 800 mg/kg and with the sesame oil formulation, 1270 mg/kg. The iv LD50 was 36–40 mg/kg, similar to the inhalation dose when the latter was corrected for Δ9-THC losses in the rodent nasal passages. Taking a round 40mg/kg ld50, that's 1,818.181818..mg minimum for inhaled thc. That's about 6 grams of top shelf 30% thc marijuana. That's $30-180 retail. From all evidence I've seen someone is more likely, by at least an order of magnitude, to die by smoke inhalation, burning their house down, tripping down the stairs, or crashing their crash than successfully smoking themselves to death. I also find that ld50 suspicious and am curious to know their testing methodology. I don't have and reason to doubt the iv ld50, but I've also never heard of anyone anywhere ever slamming thc. Taking the lower of the two ingested ld50s gets us to 121 grams, or a quarter pound of weed. That's around $200, on the cheap side. But if you were just to eat the buds I seriously doubt anything would happen at all. They're nutritious after all. So, we need 36.3 grams of activated and concentrated thc, probably in the form of hash oil refill syringes. That's like $750 minimum. Realistically over $1500. It has a constituency thicker than molasses, and tastes pretty bad and you'll probably puke it up before it kills you unless you mix it down with something that's easier to palate, but then you're most likely increasing the ld50 to at least 58g. Let's compare these values. Pure nicotine: 300-600mg. A typical cigarette has 1mg or less nicotine. That's 15-30 packs. I'm assuming rather quick. Smoke inhalation would probably kill first. $75-150. Alcohol 21oz 80 proof in an hour for a 120lb man. $5? Opiates? Read some war stories. 10mg oxycontin could make some opiate niave people nod and puke. 80 could stop some peoples breathing. Yet some heavy users take 1,000mg+ plus 'safely'. (2) Name brand opiate pills are expensive. If I'm remembering right its usually $1/mg. Fentanyl? Carfentanyl? Pictures explain it better: https://dancesafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fatal-doses.jpg https://dancesafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fatal-doses... $? a fraction of the name brands. Though you won't find hustling this in baggies or foil. It's possible to inhale enough airborne fentanyl to od. Hell, it could even just land on your skin and get absorbed. As far as the possibility of fatal overdoses on recreational drugs goes, marijuana is basically benign. 1.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041008X74901264 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041008X74... 2. https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/how-much-over-your-normal-dose-is-od-territory-opiates.215723/ https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/how-much-over-your-norm...
- lokedhs 7y ago
  It may be that I'm not familiar with US English expressions, but it's not clear to me if "Uh huh" means yes or no. Based on context my guess is "yes", but I honestly don't know. If I try to pronounce it to myself, I can do so with intonation that indicates either. I really don't like to be the guy who is nitpicking, but in an international forum such as this it's helpful to be as clear as possible.
  - WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
    You are correct. "Uh huh" is the expression of the sound we make when we mean yes.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh I happen to know it's not specific to American English though.
  - harimau777 7y ago
    "Uh huh" generally means "yes". However, I think what might be tripping you up is that it is often used sarcastically to actually means "no". In this case, I agree with you. It probably means "yes".
all_blue_chucks 7y ago
Opioids are right up there with meth as the most addictive substance on the planet. Pot doesn't even make the list. There is no comparison.
british_india 7y ago
People have been smoking pot since the 1930's in the United States. Your statement is grossly unfair: opiates are complex chemicals that are the product of deep chemistry. Pot is a plant, the product of evolution. Cigarettes contain the chemical ammonia. Pot is not toxic. You are covertly pushing your own political beliefs when the comparison between opiates and pot is wildly unmatched.
mnm1 7y ago
That's ridiculous. Everyone knew opiates were addictive, though quite safe otherwise if administered properly long term. Everyone's known for well over a hundred years about addiction and about opiates for hundreds of years more. This whole no one knew nonsense is utter bullshit. Marijuana also has consequences and they too have been known for thousands of years.

alphabettsy 7y ago

It’s not that something changed with opioids as a category, we’ve been using them forever. Drug companies made time release formulations of basically the same compounds and said they weren’t as addictive as the stuff we used before and that wasn’t true. In the US Doctors tend to do what the patient wants, which you would expect from a free-market healthcare system. This leads to patients often asking for medications, in addition to marketing reps incentivizing physicians who want to make their patients happy as quickly as possible. I don’t see a clear parallel.

jMyles 7y ago

One of the main advantages of cannabis as medicine is that it is so forgiving when used in its therapeutic range. It is the inverse of opioid drugs in this respect: opioids are very powerful, but can fairly easily cause death or dependence when used even in the lower end of their therapeutic range. Cannabis is much less powerful of course, but can be titrated easily because it has so little acute toxicity even at huge doses.

paulddraper 7y ago

One difference: it's impossible to die (immediately) from marijuana. Opiods? Yes. Asprin? Uh huh. Alcohol? Absolutely. Like tobacco, week can be harm you, but only over a long period of time.

WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
>One difference: it's impossible to die (immediately) from marijuana. You can overdose yourself with Cannabis Extracts. They are just as legal as the plant.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  > They are just as legal as the plant. Maybe they shouldn't be? IDK. What I do know is that it's impossible to overdose on marijuana leaf.
  - def8cefe 7y ago
    You smoke the flower of Cannabis, mot the leaves... so I guess you're even more likely correct.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
  Yeah. Sure. That's possible. But how probable? >The intragastric LD50 with the emulsion was 800 mg/kg and with the sesame oil formulation, 1270 mg/kg. The iv LD50 was 36–40 mg/kg, similar to the inhalation dose when the latter was corrected for Δ9-THC losses in the rodent nasal passages. Taking a round 40mg/kg ld50, that's 1,818.181818..mg minimum for inhaled thc. That's about 6 grams of top shelf 30% thc marijuana. That's $30-180 retail. From all evidence I've seen someone is more likely, by at least an order of magnitude, to die by smoke inhalation, burning their house down, tripping down the stairs, or crashing their crash than successfully smoking themselves to death. I also find that ld50 suspicious and am curious to know their testing methodology. I don't have and reason to doubt the iv ld50, but I've also never heard of anyone anywhere ever slamming thc. Taking the lower of the two ingested ld50s gets us to 121 grams, or a quarter pound of weed. That's around $200, on the cheap side. But if you were just to eat the buds I seriously doubt anything would happen at all. They're nutritious after all. So, we need 36.3 grams of activated and concentrated thc, probably in the form of hash oil refill syringes. That's like $750 minimum. Realistically over $1500. It has a constituency thicker than molasses, and tastes pretty bad and you'll probably puke it up before it kills you unless you mix it down with something that's easier to palate, but then you're most likely increasing the ld50 to at least 58g. Let's compare these values. Pure nicotine: 300-600mg. A typical cigarette has 1mg or less nicotine. That's 15-30 packs. I'm assuming rather quick. Smoke inhalation would probably kill first. $75-150. Alcohol 21oz 80 proof in an hour for a 120lb man. $5? Opiates? Read some war stories. 10mg oxycontin could make some opiate niave people nod and puke. 80 could stop some peoples breathing. Yet some heavy users take 1,000mg+ plus 'safely'. (2) Name brand opiate pills are expensive. If I'm remembering right its usually $1/mg. Fentanyl? Carfentanyl? Pictures explain it better: https://dancesafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fatal-doses.jpg https://dancesafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fatal-doses... $? a fraction of the name brands. Though you won't find hustling this in baggies or foil. It's possible to inhale enough airborne fentanyl to od. Hell, it could even just land on your skin and get absorbed. As far as the possibility of fatal overdoses on recreational drugs goes, marijuana is basically benign. 1.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041008X74901264 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041008X74... 2. https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/how-much-over-your-normal-dose-is-od-territory-opiates.215723/ https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/how-much-over-your-norm...
lokedhs 7y ago
It may be that I'm not familiar with US English expressions, but it's not clear to me if "Uh huh" means yes or no. Based on context my guess is "yes", but I honestly don't know. If I try to pronounce it to myself, I can do so with intonation that indicates either. I really don't like to be the guy who is nitpicking, but in an international forum such as this it's helpful to be as clear as possible.
- WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
  You are correct. "Uh huh" is the expression of the sound we make when we mean yes.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh I happen to know it's not specific to American English though.
- harimau777 7y ago
  "Uh huh" generally means "yes". However, I think what might be tripping you up is that it is often used sarcastically to actually means "no". In this case, I agree with you. It probably means "yes".

all_blue_chucks 7y ago

Opioids are right up there with meth as the most addictive substance on the planet. Pot doesn't even make the list. There is no comparison.

british_india 7y ago

People have been smoking pot since the 1930's in the United States. Your statement is grossly unfair: opiates are complex chemicals that are the product of deep chemistry. Pot is a plant, the product of evolution. Cigarettes contain the chemical ammonia. Pot is not toxic. You are covertly pushing your own political beliefs when the comparison between opiates and pot is wildly unmatched.

mnm1 7y ago

That's ridiculous. Everyone knew opiates were addictive, though quite safe otherwise if administered properly long term. Everyone's known for well over a hundred years about addiction and about opiates for hundreds of years more. This whole no one knew nonsense is utter bullshit. Marijuana also has consequences and they too have been known for thousands of years.