4 ms·

So says the Southern Poverty Law Center. Surely there's no connection between being criticized and criticizing back. If that's all you've got on them then I wou

So says the Southern Poverty Law Center. Surely there's no connection between being criticized and criticizing back. If that's all you've got on them then I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the label wagon. It sounds more like their research and findings are just a little controversial and the people on the business end of those findings aren't too happy about it. I agree with you on your argument about fact checking though.

michaelchisari 16y ago
Actually, it's right in the wikipedia page: The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) called VDARE a hate group,[5] that was "once a relatively mainstream anti-immigration page," but by 2003 became "a meeting place for many on the radical right."[6] The group also criticized VDARE for publishing articles by white nationalists Jared Taylor and Sam Francis, along with other authors who deal with race and intelligence. I can guarantee you that SPLC is not the only organization that considers VDARE a hate group. They may have been a more "legitimate" anti-immigration group in the past, but they've taken a hard right turn in the past decade or so.
- coderdude 16y ago
  I removed the part of my comment that mentioned citations from Wikipedia about the "white supremacists" (white nationalists in the article). Not because there actually are citations but because it wasn't core to the argument. It doesn't actually prove that just because it's in the Wikipedia article as it really isn't cited anywhere. I would have to do research outside of the WP article to confirm that. As far as I can tell you seem to know more about them than Wikipedia. To add to this: Does anyone know if white nationalist is even the same as a supremacist? That guy Jared's picture on WP is him shaking hands with Jesse Jackson. Also, the citations that were included in the quote you added from the article are from the group I mentioned above, which is why I wasn't personally convinced. To edit further: I'm coming to the conclusion that white nationalist is a position whose mission is to do things "for white people." Not unlike whatever it is Jesse Jackson does with his time for black people. Although I don't see evidence that the guy is a racist, I'm not particularly a fan of any kind of single-race oriented groups. White or otherwise.
  - michaelchisari 16y ago
    Does anyone know if white nationalist is even the same as a supremacist? It's coded language. Even people on Stormfront call themselves white nationalists.
    - coderdude 16y ago
      I'm not convinced of that and you're not doing much in the way of helping to that end. To me it sounds like you just already believe they're racist either way for their position. If they want to help white people only then they must be racists? Pretend I know nothing about these groups because I don't, but you do apparently, so please go into more detail beyond naming groups and calling them racist. Just so we're clear though I'm not 'unconvincable' of this, but the barrier is a little high because you almost can't be pro-white without also being called racist. A unique issue for whites, who are not allowed to ever express anything related to pride for their race.
      - michaelchisari 16y ago
        William Pierce, who wrote "The Turner Diaries", a fictional book about a race war which inspired Timothy McVeigh, was a white nationalist. Here's some wikipedia pages to start with, you could read "The Turner Diaries", but even despite it's awful politics, it's a terrible book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(United_States) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(United_State...
        coderdude 16y ago
        I have little doubt in my mind that William Pierce was a racist. He makes it pretty evident. I'm not even going to argue for his case, let's put it that way. He is named as the "principle ideologue for the white nationalist movement" but he was the leader of the white separatist National Alliance organization. The article doesn't mention that he himself was ever part of the white nationalist movement. To me that doesn't necessarily mean that all members of this "movement" identify themselves as racists, but after doing some reading it's clear that they at least have a history of racist groups claiming white nationalism for their misdeeds. I think I've got an idea now of at least the bigger picture. Thanks for the links and the background information.
- anon098 16y ago
  Rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, which is all you've done thus far, can you please explain why the analysis is wrong? Note that Buchanan is only arguing that the school system is not as terrible as is commonly thought and that it can produce good educational outcomes, but that it tends to do so unequally across ethnic lines: "What American schools are failing at, despite the trillions poured into schools since the 1965 Elementary and Secondary Education Act, is closing the racial divide." And even if Buchanan were to argue for racial differences in intelligence, what is so wrong with that? The wiki page you quoted implied that such discussion is prima facie evidence of racism, but why? Other kinds of racial differences beyond the obvious exist, particularly in the realm of health and nutrition. The CDC and NIH put out "racist" guidelines all the time, like the recent recommendation concerning African-Americans and salt intake. To disallow such discussion because you dislike the conclusion that may result from it is close-minded, irrational and demonstrates a mindset not so different from that of the typical young-earth creationist.

michaelchisari 16y ago

Actually, it's right in the wikipedia page: The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) called VDARE a hate group,[5] that was "once a relatively mainstream anti-immigration page," but by 2003 became "a meeting place for many on the radical right."[6] The group also criticized VDARE for publishing articles by white nationalists Jared Taylor and Sam Francis, along with other authors who deal with race and intelligence. I can guarantee you that SPLC is not the only organization that considers VDARE a hate group. They may have been a more "legitimate" anti-immigration group in the past, but they've taken a hard right turn in the past decade or so.

coderdude 16y ago
I removed the part of my comment that mentioned citations from Wikipedia about the "white supremacists" (white nationalists in the article). Not because there actually are citations but because it wasn't core to the argument. It doesn't actually prove that just because it's in the Wikipedia article as it really isn't cited anywhere. I would have to do research outside of the WP article to confirm that. As far as I can tell you seem to know more about them than Wikipedia. To add to this: Does anyone know if white nationalist is even the same as a supremacist? That guy Jared's picture on WP is him shaking hands with Jesse Jackson. Also, the citations that were included in the quote you added from the article are from the group I mentioned above, which is why I wasn't personally convinced. To edit further: I'm coming to the conclusion that white nationalist is a position whose mission is to do things "for white people." Not unlike whatever it is Jesse Jackson does with his time for black people. Although I don't see evidence that the guy is a racist, I'm not particularly a fan of any kind of single-race oriented groups. White or otherwise.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  Does anyone know if white nationalist is even the same as a supremacist? It's coded language. Even people on Stormfront call themselves white nationalists.
  - coderdude 16y ago
    I'm not convinced of that and you're not doing much in the way of helping to that end. To me it sounds like you just already believe they're racist either way for their position. If they want to help white people only then they must be racists? Pretend I know nothing about these groups because I don't, but you do apparently, so please go into more detail beyond naming groups and calling them racist. Just so we're clear though I'm not 'unconvincable' of this, but the barrier is a little high because you almost can't be pro-white without also being called racist. A unique issue for whites, who are not allowed to ever express anything related to pride for their race.
    - michaelchisari 16y ago
      William Pierce, who wrote "The Turner Diaries", a fictional book about a race war which inspired Timothy McVeigh, was a white nationalist. Here's some wikipedia pages to start with, you could read "The Turner Diaries", but even despite it's awful politics, it's a terrible book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(United_States) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(United_State...
      - coderdude 16y ago
        I have little doubt in my mind that William Pierce was a racist. He makes it pretty evident. I'm not even going to argue for his case, let's put it that way. He is named as the "principle ideologue for the white nationalist movement" but he was the leader of the white separatist National Alliance organization. The article doesn't mention that he himself was ever part of the white nationalist movement. To me that doesn't necessarily mean that all members of this "movement" identify themselves as racists, but after doing some reading it's clear that they at least have a history of racist groups claiming white nationalism for their misdeeds. I think I've got an idea now of at least the bigger picture. Thanks for the links and the background information.
anon098 16y ago
Rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, which is all you've done thus far, can you please explain why the analysis is wrong? Note that Buchanan is only arguing that the school system is not as terrible as is commonly thought and that it can produce good educational outcomes, but that it tends to do so unequally across ethnic lines: "What American schools are failing at, despite the trillions poured into schools since the 1965 Elementary and Secondary Education Act, is closing the racial divide." And even if Buchanan were to argue for racial differences in intelligence, what is so wrong with that? The wiki page you quoted implied that such discussion is prima facie evidence of racism, but why? Other kinds of racial differences beyond the obvious exist, particularly in the realm of health and nutrition. The CDC and NIH put out "racist" guidelines all the time, like the recent recommendation concerning African-Americans and salt intake. To disallow such discussion because you dislike the conclusion that may result from it is close-minded, irrational and demonstrates a mindset not so different from that of the typical young-earth creationist.