4 ms·

I cannot find my source, but even BPA free means they just coat it with BPS which is structurally and functionally similar. I suspect the toxicity studies just

I cannot find my source, but even BPA free means they just coat it with BPS which is structurally and functionally similar. I suspect the toxicity studies just have not been done yet. I have a friend who used to work in the coatings lab for PPG circa 2007. He had a handful of chemicals to choose from that he would blend and test until the outcome fit the manufacturing requirements. It was not tested for toxicity before it was sent on to manufacturers and into your soda/veggie can.

James_Henry 7y ago
This article is about TMBPF, a BPF, not a BPS. It is also structurally similar to BPA and the article is all about the struggle to effectively determine whether it is safe (and how this struggle has been very open which according to the article is not common for chemical companies). Many toxicity studies have been done and seem promising.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  > Many toxicity studies have been done and seem promising. The article implies a bit more of a mixed bag than that. Some were promising and some were troubling. I'm not a chemist but I think the most generous stance to give would be "cautiously optimistic" and I still think that's overselling it based on what I just read.
  - James_Henry 7y ago
    The only negative findings I recall were here: "Outside researchers didn’t deliver uniformly good news, however. Valspar approached scientists at Baylor Medical School, who found that TMBPF blunted estrogen’s effect on test cells and that a polymer made from the molecule had a similar effect on testosterone, according to a 2017 paper in PLOS ONE. Adam Szafran, a molecular biologist who helped lead the research, says the findings weren’t conclusive and could be specific to the prostate cells they tested. "Mallen acknowledges that those results raise questions about the compound. But he says company-sponsored research showed that changes in test cells don’t translate into effects on an entire organism. That study, published online in Food and Chemical Toxicology in October 2019, showed no endocrine-related effects on rats fed TMBPF for 3 months." The chance that this is a fairly safe chemical (or at the very least, a safer substitute for BPA) seems pretty promising so far. Of course, more studies should be and are planned to be done.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      It's really hard to ignore the conflict of interest here. All of the company's research suggest it works, and the only other research mentioned in the article raises flags. Call me skeptical.
      - James_Henry 7y ago
        > All of the company's research suggest it works, and the only other research mentioned in the article raises flags. That's not true. Soto, Maier, Maffini and Zoeller, all outside researchers, had findings in favor of TMBPF. I suppose it's fine to be skeptical though.
    - mjevans 7y ago
      I too read that as a Call for Further Testing, and given the other tests, at least moving forward with using a likely safer coating based on the other tests. It isn't unfathomable for a single study, pro or negative, to uncover a previously unconsidered test variable or other complication and it is entirely indicative that a followup study which has a larger sample size and better controls needs to be conducted to obtain more solid evidence.
- ghastmaster 7y ago
  The comment I was replying to specifically mentioned BPA.
  - James_Henry 7y ago
    Yes, I suppose I was partly correcting your statement "even BPA free means they just coat it with BPS" as the article was about a BPA alternative that is not BPS.
    - ghastmaster 7y ago
      Great point! I should have phrased that differently.
Vaslo 7y ago
This is false. Can coatings packed with consumables undergo regulatory approval - even if the FDA doesn’t require it (though it often does) the coating customer will demand it, especially on a huge change like moving away from a component like BPA. There will be flavor testing, penetration studies, etc.
- ghastmaster 7y ago
  The base chemicals that my friend had to mix/boil/alter may get regulatory approval, but once he is done with the lab work the test batch was shipped and in short order the full amount. I specifically asked him if there was any testing between his lab and the manufacturing. Edit: I see it could be implied in my original comment that there was never any testing whatsoever. I apologize.

James_Henry 7y ago

This article is about TMBPF, a BPF, not a BPS. It is also structurally similar to BPA and the article is all about the struggle to effectively determine whether it is safe (and how this struggle has been very open which according to the article is not common for chemical companies). Many toxicity studies have been done and seem promising.

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
> Many toxicity studies have been done and seem promising. The article implies a bit more of a mixed bag than that. Some were promising and some were troubling. I'm not a chemist but I think the most generous stance to give would be "cautiously optimistic" and I still think that's overselling it based on what I just read.
- James_Henry 7y ago
  The only negative findings I recall were here: "Outside researchers didn’t deliver uniformly good news, however. Valspar approached scientists at Baylor Medical School, who found that TMBPF blunted estrogen’s effect on test cells and that a polymer made from the molecule had a similar effect on testosterone, according to a 2017 paper in PLOS ONE. Adam Szafran, a molecular biologist who helped lead the research, says the findings weren’t conclusive and could be specific to the prostate cells they tested. "Mallen acknowledges that those results raise questions about the compound. But he says company-sponsored research showed that changes in test cells don’t translate into effects on an entire organism. That study, published online in Food and Chemical Toxicology in October 2019, showed no endocrine-related effects on rats fed TMBPF for 3 months." The chance that this is a fairly safe chemical (or at the very least, a safer substitute for BPA) seems pretty promising so far. Of course, more studies should be and are planned to be done.
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    It's really hard to ignore the conflict of interest here. All of the company's research suggest it works, and the only other research mentioned in the article raises flags. Call me skeptical.
    - James_Henry 7y ago
      > All of the company's research suggest it works, and the only other research mentioned in the article raises flags. That's not true. Soto, Maier, Maffini and Zoeller, all outside researchers, had findings in favor of TMBPF. I suppose it's fine to be skeptical though.
  - mjevans 7y ago
    I too read that as a Call for Further Testing, and given the other tests, at least moving forward with using a likely safer coating based on the other tests. It isn't unfathomable for a single study, pro or negative, to uncover a previously unconsidered test variable or other complication and it is entirely indicative that a followup study which has a larger sample size and better controls needs to be conducted to obtain more solid evidence.
ghastmaster 7y ago
The comment I was replying to specifically mentioned BPA.
- James_Henry 7y ago
  Yes, I suppose I was partly correcting your statement "even BPA free means they just coat it with BPS" as the article was about a BPA alternative that is not BPS.
  - ghastmaster 7y ago
    Great point! I should have phrased that differently.

Vaslo 7y ago

This is false. Can coatings packed with consumables undergo regulatory approval - even if the FDA doesn’t require it (though it often does) the coating customer will demand it, especially on a huge change like moving away from a component like BPA. There will be flavor testing, penetration studies, etc.

ghastmaster 7y ago
The base chemicals that my friend had to mix/boil/alter may get regulatory approval, but once he is done with the lab work the test batch was shipped and in short order the full amount. I specifically asked him if there was any testing between his lab and the manufacturing. Edit: I see it could be implied in my original comment that there was never any testing whatsoever. I apologize.