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TL;DR: "Most people don't have problems with procrastination" <CITATION NEEDED> I’ve read the article. I would caution against labeling yourself as having ADHD

TL;DR: "Most people don't have problems with procrastination" <CITATION NEEDED> I’ve read the article. I would caution against labeling yourself as having ADHD, IMO it is very dangerous. Every high-achieving person I know has major problem with procrastination. I was nodding while reading the article until the ADHD part. Does it mean we all have ADHD? Consider an alternative: our brains have to operate nonstop at near max capacity just to handle complexities of modern society with computers and Internet. They rebel and as a result we slap them with “defective, ADHD” labels. By analogy, if you would feed somebody ungodly amounts of cake day in, day out, it is no wonder if they develop diabetes. The problem is not that you are inherently defective; the problem is you (or rather – modern society) brought you to the brink and now you wonder why you are breaking down. Perhaps try to unplug for some months in the woods and see if the symptoms persist? If they do, I stand corrected.

InvisibleUp 7y ago
Hi, author here. Since I wrote this article, I got professionally diagnosed and treated. Turns out, yeah, I'm doing a lot better now. On most days I don't have these symptoms, I can in fact study for classes and work, while also doing the things I love. I'm getting back into doodling, I've schedules all the appointments I need to, I have a great friend group, etc. etc. It's not perfect, I relapse sometimes, but I'm doing a lot better. I'm not claiming everyone that procrastinates has ADHD. I'm claiming that it's a potential cause of chronic procrastination. Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months. I still need to pay for rent and food and healthcare and such. I'm glad that's an option for you but I can't do that.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  > "Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months. I still need to pay for rent and food and healthcare and such. I'm glad that's an option for you but I can't do that." That's exactly a big part of the problem; the way current society makes it impossible for most people to unwind, decouple and truly relax. I'm struggling with my attention span and motivation, so I've been considering getting out of the tech business and greatly reducing stress levels in my life. I've already gotten out of the mindset of always needing to have the latest new thing and the mindset of trying to keep up with the Joneses, but my IT job keeps stressing me out. It's just pointless corporate busywork and dysfunctional processes and workflows all the way down. I want something more straightforward, more beneficial to the world or even just to my local environment. It's never too late to make a change.
- spawarotti 7y ago
  Thanks for the reply! Let me elaborate on my point. Consider a thought experiment: If you would spend 3 months in the woods, do you think it is plausible your symptoms would disappear? If you don’t think this as being plausible (likely even) then we have to agree to disagree and that’s it. Not enough data. If you do agree that might cure you then what does it mean about your ADHD diagnosis? It means that you have ADHD in the context of the demands society puts on you and not you have ADHD, period. That should give you some perspective on what is really going on here. To pile up on the diagnosis: in the article you linked a doctor was quoted saying "You're an engineer, that's not a field that people with ADHD have any success like you in.". That’s my point. If I have an ambition to be in the top ~1% of most performing population and sometimes (even often!) I cannot keep up, I won’t conclude I need to take medications, make it become part of my identity, and accept as an excuse. Not being in top 1% all the time is not the same as requiring diagnosis and treatment.
  - InvisibleUp 7y ago
    Would my symptoms disappear? Unlikely. They've been with me my whole life. Would my symptoms be an issue? Possibly not, depending on how brutal the camping experience is. I will concede that this semester I've reduced my workload and it's helping me avoid burnout and stress. Stress makes my symptoms significantly worse. I'd bet most people don't do well under sustained pressure, though. That said, my problems aren't just limited to classwork and such. Doing laundry and cooking and other stuff I'd always have to do can be a genuine struggle for me. Even on the weekend, even on holiday break. Even with no pressure, I have these symptoms. I only went on the ADHD route after exhausting all other alternatives. As I gain more responsibilities in life it's becoming obvious that I need treatment. And it works for me. Maybe something else is better for you. IDK. But don't write off ADHD. Nobody would go through these tests and take these medications if it wasn't genuinely helpful.
    - spawarotti 7y ago
      Cool. Perhaps I didn't understand how severe were your symptoms based on your article. Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you found something that actually works well. I know the struggle is real. Hopefully you will be able to keep on keeping on without too much pharmacological medications and won't let that part of life define you. :)
- ianamartin 7y ago
  No one has ADHD. It's an invented problem created for a drug that didn't work out in the 80s. Your treatment is placebo effect. You are the same person you've always been. Just fine. Struggling with being human and having a hard time getting things done. Just like everyone else. We all share that, and we all deal with it in different ways. Good for you for finding something that sometimes works.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    > It's an invented problem created for a drug that didn't work out in the 80s Discovered and written about before WW1, decades before a drug not working out in the 1980s. How very peculiar. There are multiple studies, brain scans and what have you showing the treatment is not placebo effect.
  - johndubchak 7y ago
    Clearly you’ve never struggled to the extent someone has where they finally HAD to reach for help. I love that a large group of people that are well and don’t have ADHD seem to think they can tell people with ADHD that they’re full of shit and really don’t have it.
  - no_multitudes 7y ago
    "stimulants are a placebo" is a pretty wild take
- Thorentis 7y ago
  As I said in my main comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22127841#22133387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22127841#22133387): Give up social media (all of it: Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, HN), porn, and TV (including Netflix) for a couple of months. Take up some form of exercise (lifting, running, even pilates or something), and re-evaluate your attention span. I'm not being flippant. If your therapist hasn't recommended this as at least a starting point to better diagnose you, then you need a better therapist. Whenever a friend tells me they're depressed, or anxious, or have attention difficulties or whatever, the first thing I ask is "what did you spend most of your time doing last week?". If the answer is "Oh, I found this cool new show and binged it", or "Oh not much, I wasn't motivated to do anything so mostly just scrolling the feed haha" - I immediately sit them down and suggest that maybe those things are the cause and not the symptoms. You aren't depressed, therefore you watch TV and observe other people's lives on Instagram. You are depressed because you do those things with the majority of your waking hours. Sure, many people suffer from depression, anxiety, etc. for plenty of other reasons they cannot control. But the rates of this in Western countries are skyrocketing. There has to be a better reason for that than "it's just who I am".
  - InvisibleUp 7y ago
    I'll bite. - I don't watch TV, and I don't have a Netflix account - I'm asexual. I don't consume porn. - I tried taking a social media break in the past. It didn't fix anything. I would just either nap or stare at the wall while my thoughts raced in circles. - I bike and walk long distances on a regular basis. I understand you're trying to help but I'm not you. My brain works differently than yours. Maybe the rates in Western countries are skyrocketing because more people are learning this is a thing they have. Apologies if I'm being flippant, but it's very important to understand that not everyone is the same. Some people need therapy or medication or surgery or etc. to be at their best. That's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with treatments that are known and proven to resolve a set of symptoms that you have.
    - sadok 7y ago
      So much this. Honestly, there is a condescending tone in the parent comment, it's the usual "Do you feel depressed? How about we go to the movies? You'll feel better!" type of advice. My brain can't produce the appropriate neurochemicals that yours (parent comment) can, so in the past I've had the need to use antidepressants to supplement my brain. Lots of people don't understand this.
- bananamerica 7y ago
  > Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months Super ADHD dude chiming in. If I went to the woods without meds, I'd just be hyper in the woods. Very few people can truly manage ADHD without medication. Some say they do but are completely delusional. Psychotherapy is also essential since it helps to cope with the emotional and existential toll of the disorder. But, at least in my experience, it has negligible effects on the actual symptoms.
- Allower 7y ago
  NO ONE is a professional on this topic, they are all amateurs, its not a real science. You found a way to adjust your thinking patterns and thats great, but proselytizing a whole new myth does no favors for anyone, least of all yourself.
el_dev_hell 7y ago
Ironically, I was nodding along in complete agreement until: > Perhaps try to unplug for some months in the woods and see if the symptoms persist? If they do, I stand corrected. Sure, moving to Walden Pond for a few months would probably reboot your brain, but that's not a realistic possibility for 99.9% of people.
- spawarotti 7y ago
  See my reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133134
milesvp 7y ago
So to call ADHD defective is definitely a huge problem. It ignores any and all advantages of having brain differences. I saw a study a few years back that suggest ADD was highly correlated with the ability to focus under intense short term pressure. It’s very possible that this is an actual genetic tradeoff, the ability to think and act under pressure is a hugely valuable skill to society, so who cares if a person can’t help but chase butterflies the rest of the time? I think the bigger problem we have as a society is that we don’t do a good enough job identifying people’s strengths and finding ways to leverage them while downplaying their weaknesses. It’s something that I think exceptional managers do with their teams, but I suspect is a rare skill.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  There is a theory that maybe ADHD is an evolutionary adaptation. Being distracted by small things could be quite useful for a hunter, because they're more likely to notice wild animals. As far as I know though, this is just a theory. >so who cares if a person can’t help but chase butterflies the rest of the time? Because chasing butterflies is not useful. A person whose interests change all the time is unlikely to become very good at a specific skill or even if they do become good at it, they won't use it to its full extent, because they will be off chasing butterflies. That also doesn't solve the non-economic problems such as relationships. A person with ADHD is less likely to keep their relationships healthy.
bananamerica 7y ago
> Perhaps try to unplug for some months in the woods and see if the symptoms persist? If they do, I stand corrected If I break my leg, will you tell me to "think it out"?
keerthiko 7y ago
A nitpick, but it doesn't help your argument when your analogy is a medical myth > By analogy, if you would feed somebody ungodly amounts of cake day in, day out, it is no wonder if they develop diabetes. No amount of sugar in your diet causes diabetes, type 1 or type 2. Being overweight and otherwise unhealthy, or genetic predisposition does cause pancreatic degradation. If you eat cake all day, but have sparse genetic history of diabetes, get your other nutrients, maintain a good fitness regime and stay on top of your physiological needs, you are unlikely to develop diabetes. AKA: Often you are inherently defective, and only secondarily a product of modern society.
inkeddeveloper 7y ago
our brains have to operate nonstop at near max capacity <CITATION NEEDED> Pretty sure this is egregiously false.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Seems arguable. Why would nature over-supply us with brain power? It takes calories, adds weight, increases disease vectors and physical vulnerability. Maybe its fair to say we have brain capacity sufficient for a normal distribution of operating requirements. Instead of 'nonstop'. But we certainly don't have any brain in excess of requirements, according to natural selection logic.

InvisibleUp 7y ago

Hi, author here. Since I wrote this article, I got professionally diagnosed and treated. Turns out, yeah, I'm doing a lot better now. On most days I don't have these symptoms, I can in fact study for classes and work, while also doing the things I love. I'm getting back into doodling, I've schedules all the appointments I need to, I have a great friend group, etc. etc. It's not perfect, I relapse sometimes, but I'm doing a lot better. I'm not claiming everyone that procrastinates has ADHD. I'm claiming that it's a potential cause of chronic procrastination. Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months. I still need to pay for rent and food and healthcare and such. I'm glad that's an option for you but I can't do that.

KozmoNau7 7y ago
> "Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months. I still need to pay for rent and food and healthcare and such. I'm glad that's an option for you but I can't do that." That's exactly a big part of the problem; the way current society makes it impossible for most people to unwind, decouple and truly relax. I'm struggling with my attention span and motivation, so I've been considering getting out of the tech business and greatly reducing stress levels in my life. I've already gotten out of the mindset of always needing to have the latest new thing and the mindset of trying to keep up with the Joneses, but my IT job keeps stressing me out. It's just pointless corporate busywork and dysfunctional processes and workflows all the way down. I want something more straightforward, more beneficial to the world or even just to my local environment. It's never too late to make a change.
spawarotti 7y ago
Thanks for the reply! Let me elaborate on my point. Consider a thought experiment: If you would spend 3 months in the woods, do you think it is plausible your symptoms would disappear? If you don’t think this as being plausible (likely even) then we have to agree to disagree and that’s it. Not enough data. If you do agree that might cure you then what does it mean about your ADHD diagnosis? It means that you have ADHD in the context of the demands society puts on you and not you have ADHD, period. That should give you some perspective on what is really going on here. To pile up on the diagnosis: in the article you linked a doctor was quoted saying "You're an engineer, that's not a field that people with ADHD have any success like you in.". That’s my point. If I have an ambition to be in the top ~1% of most performing population and sometimes (even often!) I cannot keep up, I won’t conclude I need to take medications, make it become part of my identity, and accept as an excuse. Not being in top 1% all the time is not the same as requiring diagnosis and treatment.
- InvisibleUp 7y ago
  Would my symptoms disappear? Unlikely. They've been with me my whole life. Would my symptoms be an issue? Possibly not, depending on how brutal the camping experience is. I will concede that this semester I've reduced my workload and it's helping me avoid burnout and stress. Stress makes my symptoms significantly worse. I'd bet most people don't do well under sustained pressure, though. That said, my problems aren't just limited to classwork and such. Doing laundry and cooking and other stuff I'd always have to do can be a genuine struggle for me. Even on the weekend, even on holiday break. Even with no pressure, I have these symptoms. I only went on the ADHD route after exhausting all other alternatives. As I gain more responsibilities in life it's becoming obvious that I need treatment. And it works for me. Maybe something else is better for you. IDK. But don't write off ADHD. Nobody would go through these tests and take these medications if it wasn't genuinely helpful.
  - spawarotti 7y ago
    Cool. Perhaps I didn't understand how severe were your symptoms based on your article. Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you found something that actually works well. I know the struggle is real. Hopefully you will be able to keep on keeping on without too much pharmacological medications and won't let that part of life define you. :)
ianamartin 7y ago
No one has ADHD. It's an invented problem created for a drug that didn't work out in the 80s. Your treatment is placebo effect. You are the same person you've always been. Just fine. Struggling with being human and having a hard time getting things done. Just like everyone else. We all share that, and we all deal with it in different ways. Good for you for finding something that sometimes works.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  > It's an invented problem created for a drug that didn't work out in the 80s Discovered and written about before WW1, decades before a drug not working out in the 1980s. How very peculiar. There are multiple studies, brain scans and what have you showing the treatment is not placebo effect.
- johndubchak 7y ago
  Clearly you’ve never struggled to the extent someone has where they finally HAD to reach for help. I love that a large group of people that are well and don’t have ADHD seem to think they can tell people with ADHD that they’re full of shit and really don’t have it.
- no_multitudes 7y ago
  "stimulants are a placebo" is a pretty wild take
Thorentis 7y ago
As I said in my main comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22127841#22133387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22127841#22133387): Give up social media (all of it: Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, HN), porn, and TV (including Netflix) for a couple of months. Take up some form of exercise (lifting, running, even pilates or something), and re-evaluate your attention span. I'm not being flippant. If your therapist hasn't recommended this as at least a starting point to better diagnose you, then you need a better therapist. Whenever a friend tells me they're depressed, or anxious, or have attention difficulties or whatever, the first thing I ask is "what did you spend most of your time doing last week?". If the answer is "Oh, I found this cool new show and binged it", or "Oh not much, I wasn't motivated to do anything so mostly just scrolling the feed haha" - I immediately sit them down and suggest that maybe those things are the cause and not the symptoms. You aren't depressed, therefore you watch TV and observe other people's lives on Instagram. You are depressed because you do those things with the majority of your waking hours. Sure, many people suffer from depression, anxiety, etc. for plenty of other reasons they cannot control. But the rates of this in Western countries are skyrocketing. There has to be a better reason for that than "it's just who I am".
- InvisibleUp 7y ago
  I'll bite. - I don't watch TV, and I don't have a Netflix account - I'm asexual. I don't consume porn. - I tried taking a social media break in the past. It didn't fix anything. I would just either nap or stare at the wall while my thoughts raced in circles. - I bike and walk long distances on a regular basis. I understand you're trying to help but I'm not you. My brain works differently than yours. Maybe the rates in Western countries are skyrocketing because more people are learning this is a thing they have. Apologies if I'm being flippant, but it's very important to understand that not everyone is the same. Some people need therapy or medication or surgery or etc. to be at their best. That's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with treatments that are known and proven to resolve a set of symptoms that you have.
  - sadok 7y ago
    So much this. Honestly, there is a condescending tone in the parent comment, it's the usual "Do you feel depressed? How about we go to the movies? You'll feel better!" type of advice. My brain can't produce the appropriate neurochemicals that yours (parent comment) can, so in the past I've had the need to use antidepressants to supplement my brain. Lots of people don't understand this.
bananamerica 7y ago
> Also, I really can't afford to live in the woods for a few months Super ADHD dude chiming in. If I went to the woods without meds, I'd just be hyper in the woods. Very few people can truly manage ADHD without medication. Some say they do but are completely delusional. Psychotherapy is also essential since it helps to cope with the emotional and existential toll of the disorder. But, at least in my experience, it has negligible effects on the actual symptoms.
Allower 7y ago
NO ONE is a professional on this topic, they are all amateurs, its not a real science. You found a way to adjust your thinking patterns and thats great, but proselytizing a whole new myth does no favors for anyone, least of all yourself.

el_dev_hell 7y ago

Ironically, I was nodding along in complete agreement until: > Perhaps try to unplug for some months in the woods and see if the symptoms persist? If they do, I stand corrected. Sure, moving to Walden Pond for a few months would probably reboot your brain, but that's not a realistic possibility for 99.9% of people.

spawarotti 7y ago
See my reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133134

milesvp 7y ago

So to call ADHD defective is definitely a huge problem. It ignores any and all advantages of having brain differences. I saw a study a few years back that suggest ADD was highly correlated with the ability to focus under intense short term pressure. It’s very possible that this is an actual genetic tradeoff, the ability to think and act under pressure is a hugely valuable skill to society, so who cares if a person can’t help but chase butterflies the rest of the time? I think the bigger problem we have as a society is that we don’t do a good enough job identifying people’s strengths and finding ways to leverage them while downplaying their weaknesses. It’s something that I think exceptional managers do with their teams, but I suspect is a rare skill.

Mirioron 7y ago
There is a theory that maybe ADHD is an evolutionary adaptation. Being distracted by small things could be quite useful for a hunter, because they're more likely to notice wild animals. As far as I know though, this is just a theory. >so who cares if a person can’t help but chase butterflies the rest of the time? Because chasing butterflies is not useful. A person whose interests change all the time is unlikely to become very good at a specific skill or even if they do become good at it, they won't use it to its full extent, because they will be off chasing butterflies. That also doesn't solve the non-economic problems such as relationships. A person with ADHD is less likely to keep their relationships healthy.

bananamerica 7y ago

> Perhaps try to unplug for some months in the woods and see if the symptoms persist? If they do, I stand corrected If I break my leg, will you tell me to "think it out"?

keerthiko 7y ago

A nitpick, but it doesn't help your argument when your analogy is a medical myth > By analogy, if you would feed somebody ungodly amounts of cake day in, day out, it is no wonder if they develop diabetes. No amount of sugar in your diet causes diabetes, type 1 or type 2. Being overweight and otherwise unhealthy, or genetic predisposition does cause pancreatic degradation. If you eat cake all day, but have sparse genetic history of diabetes, get your other nutrients, maintain a good fitness regime and stay on top of your physiological needs, you are unlikely to develop diabetes. AKA: Often you are inherently defective, and only secondarily a product of modern society.

inkeddeveloper 7y ago

our brains have to operate nonstop at near max capacity <CITATION NEEDED> Pretty sure this is egregiously false.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Seems arguable. Why would nature over-supply us with brain power? It takes calories, adds weight, increases disease vectors and physical vulnerability. Maybe its fair to say we have brain capacity sufficient for a normal distribution of operating requirements. Instead of 'nonstop'. But we certainly don't have any brain in excess of requirements, according to natural selection logic.