8 ms·

If what Apple alleges is true, the ex-employee was particularly brazen about his competitive activity on company time and using company property. IANAL, but if

If what Apple alleges is true, the ex-employee was particularly brazen about his competitive activity on company time and using company property. IANAL, but if you're planning a startup while employed somewhere else, have a wall of separation between the two. Don't use any resource that has any sort of relationship to the employer other than through you. That includes property, equipment, time, employees and infrastructure. You are not only better protecting yourself legally, but also showing respect to your employer by not misusing/countermanding their resources.

mattnewton 7y ago
IANAL, but what does not using company time mean for salaried employees? I'm never "on the clock" vs "off the clock" in my current role, I just have target dates to hit.
- baryphonic 7y ago
  It's a good question. I don't know, and if you're curious, ask an employment lawyer. I'm even further removed from company time: not only am I salaried non-exempt, but I mostly work remotely. My own rule (without taking into account any legal advice I don't need, since I'm not working on my own startup) is to be very strict about the resources that belong to the company, and not mix them with anything I do for fun or personal/professional growth.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    If you're non-exempt, then you're explicitly tracking "company time" vs "not company time". Did you mean you are exempt?
    - baryphonic 7y ago
      Both of you are correct. I meant I am salaried exempt and remote. Apparently I was also caffeine deficient at the time I wrote that...
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    Non-exempt workers are generally employees paid on an hourly basis, below an annual income threshold of approximately $55k, not including certain programmers or white-collar workers, both of which have been explicitly "exempted" from the law.
    - baryphonic 7y ago
      Yep, I meant salaried exempt.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location. If you are in the office at your place of work, do the work you are paid to do, if you are planning on doing activities that relate to job hunting/ creating a new business, do it after you leave or while at lunch. If the guy's last couple month's productivity goes through the floor and he has dozens of hour+ long phone calls to his lawyer's office, he might be in trouble.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location. ...if you work from home?
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      At work computer versus at own. Or even VPN on, versus off VPN, though that’s harder if you don’t use one.
      - codyb 7y ago
        Even accounts could be a reasonable separation. If you absolutely had to use your personal computer for a full time gig I can’t imagine how having a clean slate and user namespace wouldn’t be beneficial. Discreet SSH keys, directories, downloads, etc.
        trickstra 7y ago
        I work from home and even when I have no startup plans I still keep two separate browser profiles, ssh keys, directories etc, exactly for the benefits you mentioned. Things like autocomplete suddenly become "smarter" if they know I'm looking for something work related.
    - Hamuko 7y ago
      Switch from your work computer to your own computer. If you don't have on the clock vs. off the clock, then I think you could make the argument that you were doing work stuff and then moved to your own computer to do your own stuff.
- lilyball 7y ago
  Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources. If you're working from home and don't have normal "work hours" then it's not so well-defined.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources. It gets trickier if you are, say, eating lunch or are there after common working hours.
    - henryfjordan 7y ago
      Ehhh, you're gonna be arguing uphill there. Maybe you can show the courts a distinction but if you're salaried, you'd be safest considering everything done in the office as "company time".
- rafiki6 7y ago
  This is only true if your employment contract doesn't specify a certain number of hours a week, or if there's no standard. A simple test to see what the standard for a day is is the hours a company considers a vacation day. As much as your employer may like to think they own you, the reality is quite different, even for salaried employees who don't get paid overtime. There is a reasonableness test that can be applied.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- jedimastert 7y ago
  Also IANAL, but I would say no company resources. No company information, equipment, facilities, and nothing you didn't buy with your own money
- refurb 7y ago
  Doing outside work while on company property during normal working hours is probably a pretty good rule.
- filoleg 7y ago
  Probably not working on it during work hours or times when people expect you to work, as well as from not within any company property. If you work on your project on weekends from the comfort of your own house or a coffee shop, that's cool. If you do it during lunchtime at work or on the company office property during weekends, that is a bit shadier, even though realistically there should be no difference. Try to make your personal project situation as clear-cut and separated as possible.
- bigiain 7y ago
  Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis. When I've had employers try to claim weekend/evening work was "theirs", I've sent them a link to that legislation and a pro forma invoice for all my time during employment with them for the difference between 168 hours per week at equivalent hourly rate and what they've actually paid me so far. That nicely sets the tone for further discussion. (I only got threatened with being fired on the spot once for doing that, on which they did not follow through, and I was already interviewing elsewhere anyway...)
  - nmfisher 7y ago
    > Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis. IIRC the wording in Australian legislation is that employers can require full-time employees to work "reasonable overtime". So that doesn't sound right - at least, not as a rule across the board. Perhaps under certain awards. Even then, it's fairly useless wording. It does nothing to resolve disagreements between employer/employee as to what's reasonable. An extra hour once a year? 10 hours every week? Big difference between the two.
    - madeofpalk 7y ago
      IIRC (usually) the "reasonable overtime" request is closely followed by a clause saying that, over the course of 4 months, you still must do an average of 38 hours/week or something to that effect. How often it’s ‘enforced’ is, like you said, probably isn’t great
      - nmfisher 7y ago
        Australian employment law is the most bizarrely vague field I've ever come across. "Reasonable overtime" is only one example - there's a whole host of other really basic questions that you can't get simple, definitive answers to. For example, can I employ someone on a 12 month contract? What about 24 months? 36 months? At some point, they become a full-time/ongoing employee and get the benefits of unfair dismissal/redundancy, which means the whole "fixed-term" thing becomes meaningless. The problem is, it's never clear at what point that actually occurs. Gut feeling is that this is because all politicians know it's an absolute minefield, so none of them is willing to touch it. Better to leave it vague enough that no-one can accuse them of favouring business or employees, because no-one really has any clue what's going on. Kick the can down the road and let FWA deal with it.
planetzero 7y ago
This is why contracting is much better when building your company on the side. I have nothing in my contract that states anything about the ownership of my code (that's not company property) or about my time.
louis8799 7y ago
This will forever remain in grey area. I learnt almost all my coding skills from my first job as a programmer, I owe my mentor forever for whatever successes my skills will bring me in the future.
WalterBright 7y ago
The right thing to do is to write up a letter outlining your business plan and take it to management to buy off that it is not company business, in advance. Then you're in the clear, and there's no need to worry about it and no need to sneak around.

mattnewton 7y ago

IANAL, but what does not using company time mean for salaried employees? I'm never "on the clock" vs "off the clock" in my current role, I just have target dates to hit.

baryphonic 7y ago
It's a good question. I don't know, and if you're curious, ask an employment lawyer. I'm even further removed from company time: not only am I salaried non-exempt, but I mostly work remotely. My own rule (without taking into account any legal advice I don't need, since I'm not working on my own startup) is to be very strict about the resources that belong to the company, and not mix them with anything I do for fun or personal/professional growth.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  If you're non-exempt, then you're explicitly tracking "company time" vs "not company time". Did you mean you are exempt?
  - baryphonic 7y ago
    Both of you are correct. I meant I am salaried exempt and remote. Apparently I was also caffeine deficient at the time I wrote that...
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Non-exempt workers are generally employees paid on an hourly basis, below an annual income threshold of approximately $55k, not including certain programmers or white-collar workers, both of which have been explicitly "exempted" from the law.
  - baryphonic 7y ago
    Yep, I meant salaried exempt.
ogre_codes 7y ago
It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location. If you are in the office at your place of work, do the work you are paid to do, if you are planning on doing activities that relate to job hunting/ creating a new business, do it after you leave or while at lunch. If the guy's last couple month's productivity goes through the floor and he has dozens of hour+ long phone calls to his lawyer's office, he might be in trouble.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location. ...if you work from home?
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    At work computer versus at own. Or even VPN on, versus off VPN, though that’s harder if you don’t use one.
    - codyb 7y ago
      Even accounts could be a reasonable separation. If you absolutely had to use your personal computer for a full time gig I can’t imagine how having a clean slate and user namespace wouldn’t be beneficial. Discreet SSH keys, directories, downloads, etc.
      - trickstra 7y ago
        I work from home and even when I have no startup plans I still keep two separate browser profiles, ssh keys, directories etc, exactly for the benefits you mentioned. Things like autocomplete suddenly become "smarter" if they know I'm looking for something work related.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    Switch from your work computer to your own computer. If you don't have on the clock vs. off the clock, then I think you could make the argument that you were doing work stuff and then moved to your own computer to do your own stuff.
lilyball 7y ago
Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources. If you're working from home and don't have normal "work hours" then it's not so well-defined.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources. It gets trickier if you are, say, eating lunch or are there after common working hours.
  - henryfjordan 7y ago
    Ehhh, you're gonna be arguing uphill there. Maybe you can show the courts a distinction but if you're salaried, you'd be safest considering everything done in the office as "company time".
rafiki6 7y ago
This is only true if your employment contract doesn't specify a certain number of hours a week, or if there's no standard. A simple test to see what the standard for a day is is the hours a company considers a vacation day. As much as your employer may like to think they own you, the reality is quite different, even for salaried employees who don't get paid overtime. There is a reasonableness test that can be applied.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jedimastert 7y ago
Also IANAL, but I would say no company resources. No company information, equipment, facilities, and nothing you didn't buy with your own money
refurb 7y ago
Doing outside work while on company property during normal working hours is probably a pretty good rule.
filoleg 7y ago
Probably not working on it during work hours or times when people expect you to work, as well as from not within any company property. If you work on your project on weekends from the comfort of your own house or a coffee shop, that's cool. If you do it during lunchtime at work or on the company office property during weekends, that is a bit shadier, even though realistically there should be no difference. Try to make your personal project situation as clear-cut and separated as possible.
bigiain 7y ago
Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis. When I've had employers try to claim weekend/evening work was "theirs", I've sent them a link to that legislation and a pro forma invoice for all my time during employment with them for the difference between 168 hours per week at equivalent hourly rate and what they've actually paid me so far. That nicely sets the tone for further discussion. (I only got threatened with being fired on the spot once for doing that, on which they did not follow through, and I was already interviewing elsewhere anyway...)
- nmfisher 7y ago
  > Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis. IIRC the wording in Australian legislation is that employers can require full-time employees to work "reasonable overtime". So that doesn't sound right - at least, not as a rule across the board. Perhaps under certain awards. Even then, it's fairly useless wording. It does nothing to resolve disagreements between employer/employee as to what's reasonable. An extra hour once a year? 10 hours every week? Big difference between the two.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    IIRC (usually) the "reasonable overtime" request is closely followed by a clause saying that, over the course of 4 months, you still must do an average of 38 hours/week or something to that effect. How often it’s ‘enforced’ is, like you said, probably isn’t great
    - nmfisher 7y ago
      Australian employment law is the most bizarrely vague field I've ever come across. "Reasonable overtime" is only one example - there's a whole host of other really basic questions that you can't get simple, definitive answers to. For example, can I employ someone on a 12 month contract? What about 24 months? 36 months? At some point, they become a full-time/ongoing employee and get the benefits of unfair dismissal/redundancy, which means the whole "fixed-term" thing becomes meaningless. The problem is, it's never clear at what point that actually occurs. Gut feeling is that this is because all politicians know it's an absolute minefield, so none of them is willing to touch it. Better to leave it vague enough that no-one can accuse them of favouring business or employees, because no-one really has any clue what's going on. Kick the can down the road and let FWA deal with it.

planetzero 7y ago

This is why contracting is much better when building your company on the side. I have nothing in my contract that states anything about the ownership of my code (that's not company property) or about my time.

louis8799 7y ago

This will forever remain in grey area. I learnt almost all my coding skills from my first job as a programmer, I owe my mentor forever for whatever successes my skills will bring me in the future.

WalterBright 7y ago

The right thing to do is to write up a letter outlining your business plan and take it to management to buy off that it is not company business, in advance. Then you're in the clear, and there's no need to worry about it and no need to sneak around.