4 ms·

“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.”

0xff00ffee 7y ago
I was at a lecture once and the speaker recited a hypothetical conversation he had once had: "Someone asked me, 'When is the right time to plant a tree?' I responded, '20 years ago.'"... But it ended there, he never followed up with your second sentence. Odd, because that's way more salient! However, what surprised me was that some in the audience took it as a defeatist statement, while others took at is motivation. It seemed clear to me that it was intended to be motivational. How could this anecdote be defeatist? I still don't understand that sentiment. Literally every day is ANOTHER chance to start a habit, trend, experiment, set a goal, etc. that you forgot to do yesterday. For me that's a relief because I'm always forgetting shit. Maybe forgetting that last sentence makes it seem doomed.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  Yeah, I admit it's easy to get into the mindset that you're already doomed because of reason after reason after reason. Just look at how people respond to climate change... well, or to people posting their hobby projects on less friendly aggregators than HN (though we fall victim to the "well I'd have done it this other way better" incredibly disheartening responses to someone teaching themselves a new skill and wanting to show people). The tree quote (ancient Chinese proverb, I do not know more specific origins) is especially salient given that you're not planting the tree to make the planet better today, you're doing it so that future generations can benefit because it's the least you can do. But for most things the timeframe is shorter; I've seen 60 year olds start karate for the first time and 80 year olds go to college. The important part is to not get in your own way with a defeatist attitude. Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you wish you were. And as a disabled person I also know that sometimes it really just isn't practical. But it's important to remember that how you spend your life is for you, not to impress other people.
  - 0xff00ffee 7y ago
    > ...and wanting to show people I still don't quite get this need to show strangers. I've had it explained to me, but I'm pretty sure it is part of a cultural shift, i.e. I'm old. Like, if stranger's approval is needed, doesn't that mean you're LESS likely to do something since it isn't guaranteed? Or maybe it is easier to start something BECAUSE there are so m any strangers willing to offer support. Either way it seems like putting success/fail in the hands of external forces. > Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you wish you were. Yeah, exactly. The accomplishments in my life with the most meaning are the hardest ones. But I don't know if that's universal. I read the book "Flow" in 1991 and it changed my life, and your quote is kinda the central thesis. : : Ironically, I planted four trees last year and three haven't started to bud yet (the fourth one is), which means I prolly killed them. Maybe still too wintry. /sigh/
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > I still don't quite get this need to show strangers. I've had it explained to me, but I'm pretty sure it is part of a cultural shift, i.e. I'm old. I'm a graybeard, too, and I share your lack of understanding about this. The only time that I feel it's important to "show people" stuff is when I'm wanting to learn or reinforce my own understanding of it. I've found a lot of truth to the old saw that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else.
      - titzer 7y ago
        The shift happened gradually, then all at once. Nowadays the Instagram generation is literally obsessed with showing people everything, all the time...the bottom of the barrel being, of course, the fishface selfie, which I find infuriating. It didn't start with Facebook, but it really picked up speed. That was a platform that really penetrated into people's social circles, gave people an effortless way to post photos of themselves right from their phones, and generally created little fiefdoms of social following. We can blame platforms, and I do, a lot, but the capacity for narcissism has been latent in human nature for a long time.
    - 7y ago
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Maybe forgetting that last sentence makes it seem doomed. That's how I read it. Without the last sentence, the statement is reads as totally defeatist to me -- it seems to say "you should have planted the tree 20 years ago, then. Too late now!"
Kinrany 7y ago
I don't find this proverb convincing. The best time may be only marginally better than the actual second best time. It's main value is that it's a personal Schelling point (see also [1]) for doing the thing. "Now" is not a good Schelling point because it's the same as "in a minute" or "in an hour". [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-fences-on-slippery-slopes https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...
- neltnerb 7y ago
  It's a proverb? From ancient China? If you want to go full on "take a proverb completely literally" planting a tree in January (in the northern hemisphere, far enough north) is probably a poor decision. I think the author assumes the reader isn't a computer.
  - Kinrany 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand. I agree that it's a proverb, and I'm not taking it to literally mean tree planting. (I do think it means literally "now", but "now" is vague and depends on context.)
    - neltnerb 7y ago
      Sorry for not being clearer. I think the author intended "now" to be vague and dependent on context, and that the flexibility of such terms is part of what gives proverbs longevity. It's assumed the reader can infer the general meaning and adapt it to their situation. Plus it's poetic and succinct which makes it easier to remember. Consider the list of proverbs on this page from Aesop's Fables: http://aesop.magde.info/ http://aesop.magde.info/ Arguing about whether the unknown ancient author should have said "when optimal" rather than "now" does not improve the ability of the reader to understand the underlying meaning -- that if something should have been started long ago, urgency is appropriate and dwelling on the past is counterproductive.
      - Kinrany 7y ago

I was at a lecture once and the speaker recited a hypothetical conversation he had once had: "Someone asked me, 'When is the right time to plant a tree?' I responded, '20 years ago.'"... But it ended there, he never followed up with your second sentence. Odd, because that's way more salient! However, what surprised me was that some in the audience took it as a defeatist statement, while others took at is motivation. It seemed clear to me that it was intended to be motivational. How could this anecdote be defeatist? I still don't understand that sentiment. Literally every day is ANOTHER chance to start a habit, trend, experiment, set a goal, etc. that you forgot to do yesterday. For me that's a relief because I'm always forgetting shit. Maybe forgetting that last sentence makes it seem doomed.

neltnerb 7y ago
Yeah, I admit it's easy to get into the mindset that you're already doomed because of reason after reason after reason. Just look at how people respond to climate change... well, or to people posting their hobby projects on less friendly aggregators than HN (though we fall victim to the "well I'd have done it this other way better" incredibly disheartening responses to someone teaching themselves a new skill and wanting to show people). The tree quote (ancient Chinese proverb, I do not know more specific origins) is especially salient given that you're not planting the tree to make the planet better today, you're doing it so that future generations can benefit because it's the least you can do. But for most things the timeframe is shorter; I've seen 60 year olds start karate for the first time and 80 year olds go to college. The important part is to not get in your own way with a defeatist attitude. Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you wish you were. And as a disabled person I also know that sometimes it really just isn't practical. But it's important to remember that how you spend your life is for you, not to impress other people.
- 0xff00ffee 7y ago
  > ...and wanting to show people I still don't quite get this need to show strangers. I've had it explained to me, but I'm pretty sure it is part of a cultural shift, i.e. I'm old. Like, if stranger's approval is needed, doesn't that mean you're LESS likely to do something since it isn't guaranteed? Or maybe it is easier to start something BECAUSE there are so m any strangers willing to offer support. Either way it seems like putting success/fail in the hands of external forces. > Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you wish you were. Yeah, exactly. The accomplishments in my life with the most meaning are the hardest ones. But I don't know if that's universal. I read the book "Flow" in 1991 and it changed my life, and your quote is kinda the central thesis. : : Ironically, I planted four trees last year and three haven't started to bud yet (the fourth one is), which means I prolly killed them. Maybe still too wintry. /sigh/
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > I still don't quite get this need to show strangers. I've had it explained to me, but I'm pretty sure it is part of a cultural shift, i.e. I'm old. I'm a graybeard, too, and I share your lack of understanding about this. The only time that I feel it's important to "show people" stuff is when I'm wanting to learn or reinforce my own understanding of it. I've found a lot of truth to the old saw that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else.
    - titzer 7y ago
      The shift happened gradually, then all at once. Nowadays the Instagram generation is literally obsessed with showing people everything, all the time...the bottom of the barrel being, of course, the fishface selfie, which I find infuriating. It didn't start with Facebook, but it really picked up speed. That was a platform that really penetrated into people's social circles, gave people an effortless way to post photos of themselves right from their phones, and generally created little fiefdoms of social following. We can blame platforms, and I do, a lot, but the capacity for narcissism has been latent in human nature for a long time.
  - 7y ago
JohnFen 7y ago
> Maybe forgetting that last sentence makes it seem doomed. That's how I read it. Without the last sentence, the statement is reads as totally defeatist to me -- it seems to say "you should have planted the tree 20 years ago, then. Too late now!"

Kinrany 7y ago

I don't find this proverb convincing. The best time may be only marginally better than the actual second best time. It's main value is that it's a personal Schelling point (see also [1]) for doing the thing. "Now" is not a good Schelling point because it's the same as "in a minute" or "in an hour". [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-fences-on-slippery-slopes https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...

neltnerb 7y ago
It's a proverb? From ancient China? If you want to go full on "take a proverb completely literally" planting a tree in January (in the northern hemisphere, far enough north) is probably a poor decision. I think the author assumes the reader isn't a computer.
- Kinrany 7y ago
  I'm not sure I understand. I agree that it's a proverb, and I'm not taking it to literally mean tree planting. (I do think it means literally "now", but "now" is vague and depends on context.)
  - neltnerb 7y ago
    Sorry for not being clearer. I think the author intended "now" to be vague and dependent on context, and that the flexibility of such terms is part of what gives proverbs longevity. It's assumed the reader can infer the general meaning and adapt it to their situation. Plus it's poetic and succinct which makes it easier to remember. Consider the list of proverbs on this page from Aesop's Fables: http://aesop.magde.info/ http://aesop.magde.info/ Arguing about whether the unknown ancient author should have said "when optimal" rather than "now" does not improve the ability of the reader to understand the underlying meaning -- that if something should have been started long ago, urgency is appropriate and dwelling on the past is counterproductive.
    - Kinrany 7y ago