4 ms·

Now could you explain away major depression using the same logic?

saaaaaam 7y ago
You can yes - in fact, I was listening to “D for Diagnosis” on BBC Radio 4 last night. The show title was “Ever Changing Labels” and a psychiatrist made the point (3’20” into the programme) that what we call “depression” in DSM-V has 9 symptoms and if you have 5 out of those 9 symptoms you are diagnosed as having “depression”. But in reality 5 out of 9 gives a huge number - 15,000+ - variations. So there is no one form of “depression” and yet people are diagnosed with depression all the time.
- monadgonad 7y ago
  > But I’m reality 5 out of 9 gives a huge number - 15,000+ - variations. So there is no one form of “depression” And? Do you know how many different kinds of cancer there are? We're talking about psychogical disorders that affect people's minds and personalities, of course their presentations are going to be very different. That doesn't make them not real or mean it's not useful to group them together. Diagnosis guides treatment, and most depression responds to the same treatments. You're fallaciously assuming that because there's not a single biological marker for named psychiatric conditions that they don't exist. That's not how any psychiatrist sees it.
  - saaaaaam 7y ago
    I always think that when people start a comment so aggressively it’s not really worth responding. However, that aside: I’m not “fallaciously” anything! I responded to a question that was posed “could you explain away depression with a similar argument” with a relevant piece of information. You seem to think I’m arguing depression doesn’t exist. I am not. Forgive me if that was how it appeared, but please, for everyone’s sake, try to keep things civil.
    - Rooster61 7y ago
      > Now could you explain away major depression using the same logic? > You can yes > You seem to think I’m arguing depression doesn’t exist. I am not. That is precisely what you were trying to do. And the response to your comment was in fact civil. Claiming that your argument is fallacious attacks your argument, not you, and is perfectly appropriate for civil discourse.
      - saaaaaam 7y ago
        > That is precisely what you were trying to do What a load of crap. You’re projecting something here I’m afraid.
    - monadgonad 7y ago
      I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be aggressive. As someone with ADHD and a history of depression (misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder at one point), this is an emotive topic for me.
      - saaaaaam 7y ago
        That's OK - and I very much appreciate the apology. I also have ADHD and one of the most important people in my life suffers from a combination of complex mental health disorders which are sometimes absolutely crippling (and was also misdiagnosed for years), so my intent was absolutely not to say that these things don't exist.
  - jakoblorz 7y ago
    He wrote an example argument to how one could argue depression away in the same way. He does not seem to encourage that kind of arguing, just showing how stupid the "5 out of x symptoms does not equal an illness" argument is.
Keverw 7y ago
I think a lot of stuff related to depression and ADHD is environmental too. Instead of fixing or helping just drug everyone is the plan. If you're sick of the cold winter, hate your job, etc don't think pills is the answer, should try to move somewhere warmer with a better job. Then kids not paying attention in school, maybe it's boring or they feel it's useless to them so forcing them to do what they don't want, instead of tailoring their education instead it's one size fit's all. Plus teachers recommend getting kids checked, because then you are labeled as disabled and the school gets extra funding to go into the teachers pension program. There's someone I know who was told their kid didn't have ADHD, so shopped around and went to another doctor, and then eventually went to another doctor. Kinda like the whole antibiotics resistance thing, people expect if they have a cold that the doctor will give them pills even if it isn't going to really help. Seems like doctors in general just love drugging people, instead of fixing a symptom at the root of the cause drug them and then drug them more for the side effects to cover them up. It'd be like taking your car to the mechanic for a check engine light, and instead of checking the OBD codes and stuff they just unplug the check engine light. I think a lot of psychiatry is just a form of massive insurance fraud, there's a nonprofit organization that makes documentaries called CCHR. However CCHR is founded by the church of scientology which I know many not a fan of but I think they have some good information. I really wish CCHR would disconnect it self from scientology so it could stand on it's own as I really like their message, but I feel a bit of a conflict since it's related to scientology which is an entire topic on it's own, I guess you have to pay thousands just to level up and all these other horror stories about scientology. I think drugging children is also a form child abuse, and destroying childhood creativity. Probably if they pushed this stuff when Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs or other successful startup founders were children, who knows if they'd be as successful as they ended up being. One of the pills pushed ended up making males grow large breasts too. Then there's reports another drug can cause brain damage too along with heart conditions(which usually you think it happens in older people but young people can have heart attacks too on this crap). They even want to drug 3 and 5 year olds too. If I was in power, I'd have these drug makers and so called doctors imprisoned for life. Also diet and exercise some believe also helps, add these GMOs and other chemicals in the food, artificial sweeteners can mess with dopamine receptors, etc. So I think I see the larger picture, but many just want a pill and then go back to watching TV or smoking instead of trying to improve their families healthy lifestyle. Kinda like how parents don't even try to teach their children, they just send them to school. Lazy parenting is also part of the problem. But I guess not a one solution fits all, some people say the pills and stuff helped them. I think counselors could be valuable too, maybe even help you see things from another prospective but some insurance companies won't pay for a counselor unless you also are on drugs. Some people don't even feel like anyone cares about them either, so I think having someone to listen and who seems on your side with issues is also a positive, but I know some counselors want to record your sessions so I find that kinda creepy also as feels less private so you could be less open about things.

You can yes - in fact, I was listening to “D for Diagnosis” on BBC Radio 4 last night. The show title was “Ever Changing Labels” and a psychiatrist made the point (3’20” into the programme) that what we call “depression” in DSM-V has 9 symptoms and if you have 5 out of those 9 symptoms you are diagnosed as having “depression”. But in reality 5 out of 9 gives a huge number - 15,000+ - variations. So there is no one form of “depression” and yet people are diagnosed with depression all the time.

monadgonad 7y ago
> But I’m reality 5 out of 9 gives a huge number - 15,000+ - variations. So there is no one form of “depression” And? Do you know how many different kinds of cancer there are? We're talking about psychogical disorders that affect people's minds and personalities, of course their presentations are going to be very different. That doesn't make them not real or mean it's not useful to group them together. Diagnosis guides treatment, and most depression responds to the same treatments. You're fallaciously assuming that because there's not a single biological marker for named psychiatric conditions that they don't exist. That's not how any psychiatrist sees it.
- saaaaaam 7y ago
  I always think that when people start a comment so aggressively it’s not really worth responding. However, that aside: I’m not “fallaciously” anything! I responded to a question that was posed “could you explain away depression with a similar argument” with a relevant piece of information. You seem to think I’m arguing depression doesn’t exist. I am not. Forgive me if that was how it appeared, but please, for everyone’s sake, try to keep things civil.
  - Rooster61 7y ago
    > Now could you explain away major depression using the same logic? > You can yes > You seem to think I’m arguing depression doesn’t exist. I am not. That is precisely what you were trying to do. And the response to your comment was in fact civil. Claiming that your argument is fallacious attacks your argument, not you, and is perfectly appropriate for civil discourse.
    - saaaaaam 7y ago
      > That is precisely what you were trying to do What a load of crap. You’re projecting something here I’m afraid.
  - monadgonad 7y ago
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be aggressive. As someone with ADHD and a history of depression (misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder at one point), this is an emotive topic for me.
    - saaaaaam 7y ago
      That's OK - and I very much appreciate the apology. I also have ADHD and one of the most important people in my life suffers from a combination of complex mental health disorders which are sometimes absolutely crippling (and was also misdiagnosed for years), so my intent was absolutely not to say that these things don't exist.
- jakoblorz 7y ago
  He wrote an example argument to how one could argue depression away in the same way. He does not seem to encourage that kind of arguing, just showing how stupid the "5 out of x symptoms does not equal an illness" argument is.

Keverw 7y ago

I think a lot of stuff related to depression and ADHD is environmental too. Instead of fixing or helping just drug everyone is the plan. If you're sick of the cold winter, hate your job, etc don't think pills is the answer, should try to move somewhere warmer with a better job. Then kids not paying attention in school, maybe it's boring or they feel it's useless to them so forcing them to do what they don't want, instead of tailoring their education instead it's one size fit's all. Plus teachers recommend getting kids checked, because then you are labeled as disabled and the school gets extra funding to go into the teachers pension program. There's someone I know who was told their kid didn't have ADHD, so shopped around and went to another doctor, and then eventually went to another doctor. Kinda like the whole antibiotics resistance thing, people expect if they have a cold that the doctor will give them pills even if it isn't going to really help. Seems like doctors in general just love drugging people, instead of fixing a symptom at the root of the cause drug them and then drug them more for the side effects to cover them up. It'd be like taking your car to the mechanic for a check engine light, and instead of checking the OBD codes and stuff they just unplug the check engine light. I think a lot of psychiatry is just a form of massive insurance fraud, there's a nonprofit organization that makes documentaries called CCHR. However CCHR is founded by the church of scientology which I know many not a fan of but I think they have some good information. I really wish CCHR would disconnect it self from scientology so it could stand on it's own as I really like their message, but I feel a bit of a conflict since it's related to scientology which is an entire topic on it's own, I guess you have to pay thousands just to level up and all these other horror stories about scientology. I think drugging children is also a form child abuse, and destroying childhood creativity. Probably if they pushed this stuff when Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs or other successful startup founders were children, who knows if they'd be as successful as they ended up being. One of the pills pushed ended up making males grow large breasts too. Then there's reports another drug can cause brain damage too along with heart conditions(which usually you think it happens in older people but young people can have heart attacks too on this crap). They even want to drug 3 and 5 year olds too. If I was in power, I'd have these drug makers and so called doctors imprisoned for life. Also diet and exercise some believe also helps, add these GMOs and other chemicals in the food, artificial sweeteners can mess with dopamine receptors, etc. So I think I see the larger picture, but many just want a pill and then go back to watching TV or smoking instead of trying to improve their families healthy lifestyle. Kinda like how parents don't even try to teach their children, they just send them to school. Lazy parenting is also part of the problem. But I guess not a one solution fits all, some people say the pills and stuff helped them. I think counselors could be valuable too, maybe even help you see things from another prospective but some insurance companies won't pay for a counselor unless you also are on drugs. Some people don't even feel like anyone cares about them either, so I think having someone to listen and who seems on your side with issues is also a positive, but I know some counselors want to record your sessions so I find that kinda creepy also as feels less private so you could be less open about things.