5 ms·

Ostensibly, arguing the need for a male-oriented space implies that the default/mainstream spaces aren't already male-oriented. AFAIK, there isn't a huge outcry

by danso 7y ago

Ostensibly, arguing the need for a male-oriented space implies that the default/mainstream spaces aren't already male-oriented. AFAIK, there isn't a huge outcry against male nurse associations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN

klipt 7y ago
There's certainly been outcry over opening men-only domestic violence shelters (because it was thought they'd draw away some government funding that could instead be used for even more women's shelters). Currently men make up approximately a third of victims but have approximately 0% of the shelters.
vorpalhex 7y ago
Could we have a "Men of Irish Descent" group? I suspect that would cause all kinds of cries of racism and sexism. There's this strange sort of argument that some groups (men, white people, cis people, thin people, etc) have some kind of ephemeral power and therefore should be denied certain privileges like forming exclusive groups - but these privileges are ok for some other people. That's not equality in any sense of the word.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  it's funny that the recent SJW stuff has made it palatable to argue for white-only groups, when before all that stuff hit no one in their right mind would have argued for it due to the implications of racism. Those implications haven't disappeared, it's just that if we really think it's important for groups to be able to wall themselves off based upon race, it should be the right of whites to do it as well. Goes to show just how damaging that movement has been.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Celtic identity exists precisely because Celtic people were previously considered to be subhuman savages, fit only to be ruled over by those of more noble stock - which argument was used to justify centuries of oppression and multiple genocides. Any Celtic person demanding 'rights for whites' is essentially ignoring their own history in favor of being the guard dog on a social estate.
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      My username exists because of this group: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=celtic+woman https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=celtic+woman That's it. I committed the sin of enjoying the music of another culture, and for that, apparently I need to sit through the lecture of a keyboard warrior.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        Please don't join HN threads just to look for an ideological argument (for instance, "the sin of enjoying another culture's music"). https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=author%3Adang%20ideological&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
        celticmusic 7y ago
        you're responding to the wrong person in this conversation.
        jshevek 7y ago
        Take a moment and think about how difficult it is to moderate a site like this. Understand that their attention is usually drawn to a post by users flagging it, not by their own casual reading of a thread. They probably don't have the time to investigate these exchanges as much as you might like.
        celticmusic 7y ago
        If what you're saying is true, then my pointing out that they're responding to the wrong person should be an indication that they need to take a closer look at the conversation. Besides which, I don't think expecting a moderator to look at the context is unreasonable. The only one that needs to be told not to enter threads looking for ideological arguments is the person who reacted to a username with the word 'celtic' in it.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  There are numerous Irish mutual-aid societies, most of which were set up to offset systematic discrimination against people of Irish descent in earlier times. The argument is not that some groups have a sort of ephemeral power. The argument is that they had actual systematic power, and that minorities within a given sphere often lack actual power because their specific needs go overlooked. Would you join a wheelchair users group and ask for a stairs advocacy subcommittee in the name of equality?
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    So help break down this claim for me: > argument is that they had actual systematic power That's the sort of ephemeral power I mention, and that's the kind of claim that requires both evidence and specificity. Do people have that power because of a given trait (their gender, their skin, their nationality), or do they have it by being "the majority"? Does this apply to all majorities? If men of Asian descent are the majority in your field, should you react by having non-Asian focused groups? > minorities within a given sphere often lack actual power because their specific needs go overlooked. Do minorities have fundamentally different needs? Sure in your case of someone who is wheelchair bound that applies, but that doesn't seem to apply to say Brown-eyed software developers (to intentionally choose a non-combustible example). > Would you join a wheelchair users group and ask for a stairs advocacy subcommittee in the name of equality? I don't have an issue with exclusive groups. I have an issue when only some people are allowed to form them. If someone wants to form a stair -championing group, they should be able - even though it's silly. The people who prefer stairs and the people who are unable to use them both have fundamental rights to organize.
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      I'm not here to spoon-feed you basic concepts. If you find my comment thought provoking you can surely look up phrases like 'systematic discrimination' or 'discrimination against people of Irish descent' and build the necessary context for yourself.
      - vorpalhex 7y ago
commandlinefan 7y ago
> already male-oriented If you scroll through the comments here, you may find that it's not a foregone conclusion that the mainstream spaces are necessarily male-oriented. Quite a few people feel the opposite, in fact.
- danso 7y ago
  Didn't say it was a foregone conclusion. Just speculating to the parent commenter about why some people find proposed male spaces (in certain spheres) to be "problematic".
hadtodoit 7y ago
Male-oriented by chance or choice? The argument for the latter appears to be the same as a female-only space. People are generally more comfortable around their own sex. A male-only space isn't anti-female because it caters to the needs of men exclusively and vice-versa.

by danso 7y ago

klipt 7y ago

There's certainly been outcry over opening men-only domestic violence shelters (because it was thought they'd draw away some government funding that could instead be used for even more women's shelters). Currently men make up approximately a third of victims but have approximately 0% of the shelters.

vorpalhex 7y ago

Could we have a "Men of Irish Descent" group? I suspect that would cause all kinds of cries of racism and sexism. There's this strange sort of argument that some groups (men, white people, cis people, thin people, etc) have some kind of ephemeral power and therefore should be denied certain privileges like forming exclusive groups - but these privileges are ok for some other people. That's not equality in any sense of the word.

celticmusic 7y ago
it's funny that the recent SJW stuff has made it palatable to argue for white-only groups, when before all that stuff hit no one in their right mind would have argued for it due to the implications of racism. Those implications haven't disappeared, it's just that if we really think it's important for groups to be able to wall themselves off based upon race, it should be the right of whites to do it as well. Goes to show just how damaging that movement has been.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Celtic identity exists precisely because Celtic people were previously considered to be subhuman savages, fit only to be ruled over by those of more noble stock - which argument was used to justify centuries of oppression and multiple genocides. Any Celtic person demanding 'rights for whites' is essentially ignoring their own history in favor of being the guard dog on a social estate.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    My username exists because of this group: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=celtic+woman https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=celtic+woman That's it. I committed the sin of enjoying the music of another culture, and for that, apparently I need to sit through the lecture of a keyboard warrior.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Please don't join HN threads just to look for an ideological argument (for instance, "the sin of enjoying another culture's music"). https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=author%3Adang%20ideological&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
      - celticmusic 7y ago
        you're responding to the wrong person in this conversation.
        jshevek 7y ago
        Take a moment and think about how difficult it is to moderate a site like this. Understand that their attention is usually drawn to a post by users flagging it, not by their own casual reading of a thread. They probably don't have the time to investigate these exchanges as much as you might like.
        celticmusic 7y ago
        If what you're saying is true, then my pointing out that they're responding to the wrong person should be an indication that they need to take a closer look at the conversation. Besides which, I don't think expecting a moderator to look at the context is unreasonable. The only one that needs to be told not to enter threads looking for ideological arguments is the person who reacted to a username with the word 'celtic' in it.
anigbrowl 7y ago
There are numerous Irish mutual-aid societies, most of which were set up to offset systematic discrimination against people of Irish descent in earlier times. The argument is not that some groups have a sort of ephemeral power. The argument is that they had actual systematic power, and that minorities within a given sphere often lack actual power because their specific needs go overlooked. Would you join a wheelchair users group and ask for a stairs advocacy subcommittee in the name of equality?
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  So help break down this claim for me: > argument is that they had actual systematic power That's the sort of ephemeral power I mention, and that's the kind of claim that requires both evidence and specificity. Do people have that power because of a given trait (their gender, their skin, their nationality), or do they have it by being "the majority"? Does this apply to all majorities? If men of Asian descent are the majority in your field, should you react by having non-Asian focused groups? > minorities within a given sphere often lack actual power because their specific needs go overlooked. Do minorities have fundamentally different needs? Sure in your case of someone who is wheelchair bound that applies, but that doesn't seem to apply to say Brown-eyed software developers (to intentionally choose a non-combustible example). > Would you join a wheelchair users group and ask for a stairs advocacy subcommittee in the name of equality? I don't have an issue with exclusive groups. I have an issue when only some people are allowed to form them. If someone wants to form a stair -championing group, they should be able - even though it's silly. The people who prefer stairs and the people who are unable to use them both have fundamental rights to organize.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    I'm not here to spoon-feed you basic concepts. If you find my comment thought provoking you can surely look up phrases like 'systematic discrimination' or 'discrimination against people of Irish descent' and build the necessary context for yourself.
    - vorpalhex 7y ago

commandlinefan 7y ago

> already male-oriented If you scroll through the comments here, you may find that it's not a foregone conclusion that the mainstream spaces are necessarily male-oriented. Quite a few people feel the opposite, in fact.

danso 7y ago
Didn't say it was a foregone conclusion. Just speculating to the parent commenter about why some people find proposed male spaces (in certain spheres) to be "problematic".

hadtodoit 7y ago

Male-oriented by chance or choice? The argument for the latter appears to be the same as a female-only space. People are generally more comfortable around their own sex. A male-only space isn't anti-female because it caters to the needs of men exclusively and vice-versa.