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> I think you could run a reasonable lifestyle business here if you don’t take VC, but I’m skeptical this can ever be truly mass-market. You Need a Budget (YNA

> I think you could run a reasonable lifestyle business here if you don’t take VC, but I’m skeptical this can ever be truly mass-market. You Need a Budget (YNAB) is proof of this. I don't believe they've taken any VC funding and are a pretty successful lifestyle business in the Budgeting/Finance space.

dangus 7y ago
They’re great, but they aren’t super quick with features and I wish the product had more, especially when it comes to the graphical reports. It’s also an expensive product for most people. But we do need more of these sustainable low-growth non-VC style SaaS companies out there.
- briffle 7y ago
  I just wish their imports were a bit more reliable. Although some of that comes down to the fact they use 3rd parties that scrape the screen of your bank, so any time something changes, it breaks the imports. (it would be great to get an API standard, with proper authentication, etc) Also, there is a plugin that gives you more reports: https://www.toolkitforynab.com/ https://www.toolkitforynab.com/
  - HatchedLake721 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking
- taurath 7y ago
  If a product is good, we shouldn't judge it on its inability to continuously add new features.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Not sure I understand that. If I want feature X, and <app> doesn't have feature X, then that's a negative. Doesn't mean <app> is not "good", but it's certainly criteria by which to judge it.
    - mumblemumble 7y ago
      Arguably, though, an app is more than just the sum of its feature list. Also, even if a feature is desirable when considered in a vacuum, that doesn't necessarily imply that adding it will improve the product. Somewhere in between $very_long_ago and $long_ago, I stopped using a well-known personal finance app because I grew dissatisfied with it overall. It gained all sorts of genuinely useful capabilities over that time period, and didn't shed any, but still managed to become less functional (for my purposes) at the same time. I ended up replacing it with a competitor whose feature list was much, much, much smaller.
    - taurath 7y ago
      If <app> is good, then its nice to focus sometimes on the fact that its good, rather than on what it doesn't have. Its similar to judging a Honda for not being a Maserati that gets 200 miles per gallon.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        Sure, but whether or not I decide to stick with <app> depends on many factors. One of those is "does it do everything I need/want." If the answer is no, then that factors into my decision.
        taurath 7y ago
        No app is gonna rub your back at night or hold your hand on your deathbed (well, yet, google is probably working on something), so "everything" isn't... really a thing.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Who said "everything"? You're just making up arguments I never made. Can we agree that an app with zero features is useless? Assuming we can, the utility of an application is a function of which features it has and how well those features are implemented. So the features are important, and how they're implemented is also important. I don't understand why that's (apparently) controversial.
- alexilliamson 7y ago
  I love YNAB but definitely not for the reports. I've been downloading my data and analyzing it in Rstudio whenever I want prettier charts.
  - taftster 7y ago
    Agreed. Their reports are horrible and for all practical purposes useless. It has a few other warts and areas of improvement, which bother me, but none as much as the lack of reporting.
mv1 7y ago
The question is what happens to these lifestyle businesses when a VC backed company comes along with a $100MM raise in the space and a free product. Do they survive? Does the team lose their livelihood?
- nishantvyas 7y ago
  VC money does not fix TAM, be it 100M or 1B. What is does; allows startup to pivot and find other areas of growth (hopefully really fast), which is not easy or guaranteed to work either. Recent examples like WeWork, Zume and many more... I must also add, sometimes not everything that one sees fits in the definition of TAM... by true definition of TAM, AirBnB and UBER would have been a lifestyle business when they were first started....
wyclif 7y ago
I hate the phrase "lifestyle business." Look: it's a business. No, it's not going to make VCs billionaires. But it's a perfectly respectable business nonetheless. Nothing wrong with that.
- rokhayakebe 7y ago
  Do not worry. There is only a tiny group of people who know the meaning of the term.
- bananamerica 7y ago
  So I went to Wikipedia and found this definition: "A lifestyle business is a business set up and run by its founders primarily with the aim of sustaining a particular level of income and no more; or to provide a foundation from which to enjoy a particular lifestyle." Seems like a useful concept. What's wrong with it?
  - zerkten 7y ago
    It's a useful concept when used appropriately. There is nuance that you are missing. When used it's a description that the business owners provide based on how they run their business, then it's OK. When you use it to describe someone else's business it's often considered a slur (unless they've previously shared this with you and you know that fact.) Many smaller companies are not actually lifestyle businesses although that term is thrown around here. The owners may be part-time because they actually operate a group of companies, grow niche companies to sell outside of the VC world, etc. They are indistinguishable from lifestyle businesses, but the owners are looking to do a lot more than sustain a level of income.
    - bananamerica 7y ago
      > When you use it to describe someone else's business it's often considered a slur I see. I find it a bit unsettling that in some cultures stating that a business has priorities other than profit at all costs is considered a slur.

dangus 7y ago

They’re great, but they aren’t super quick with features and I wish the product had more, especially when it comes to the graphical reports. It’s also an expensive product for most people. But we do need more of these sustainable low-growth non-VC style SaaS companies out there.

briffle 7y ago
I just wish their imports were a bit more reliable. Although some of that comes down to the fact they use 3rd parties that scrape the screen of your bank, so any time something changes, it breaks the imports. (it would be great to get an API standard, with proper authentication, etc) Also, there is a plugin that gives you more reports: https://www.toolkitforynab.com/ https://www.toolkitforynab.com/
- HatchedLake721 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking
taurath 7y ago
If a product is good, we shouldn't judge it on its inability to continuously add new features.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Not sure I understand that. If I want feature X, and <app> doesn't have feature X, then that's a negative. Doesn't mean <app> is not "good", but it's certainly criteria by which to judge it.
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    Arguably, though, an app is more than just the sum of its feature list. Also, even if a feature is desirable when considered in a vacuum, that doesn't necessarily imply that adding it will improve the product. Somewhere in between $very_long_ago and $long_ago, I stopped using a well-known personal finance app because I grew dissatisfied with it overall. It gained all sorts of genuinely useful capabilities over that time period, and didn't shed any, but still managed to become less functional (for my purposes) at the same time. I ended up replacing it with a competitor whose feature list was much, much, much smaller.
  - taurath 7y ago
    If <app> is good, then its nice to focus sometimes on the fact that its good, rather than on what it doesn't have. Its similar to judging a Honda for not being a Maserati that gets 200 miles per gallon.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Sure, but whether or not I decide to stick with <app> depends on many factors. One of those is "does it do everything I need/want." If the answer is no, then that factors into my decision.
      - taurath 7y ago
        No app is gonna rub your back at night or hold your hand on your deathbed (well, yet, google is probably working on something), so "everything" isn't... really a thing.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Who said "everything"? You're just making up arguments I never made. Can we agree that an app with zero features is useless? Assuming we can, the utility of an application is a function of which features it has and how well those features are implemented. So the features are important, and how they're implemented is also important. I don't understand why that's (apparently) controversial.
alexilliamson 7y ago
I love YNAB but definitely not for the reports. I've been downloading my data and analyzing it in Rstudio whenever I want prettier charts.
- taftster 7y ago
  Agreed. Their reports are horrible and for all practical purposes useless. It has a few other warts and areas of improvement, which bother me, but none as much as the lack of reporting.

mv1 7y ago

The question is what happens to these lifestyle businesses when a VC backed company comes along with a $100MM raise in the space and a free product. Do they survive? Does the team lose their livelihood?

nishantvyas 7y ago
VC money does not fix TAM, be it 100M or 1B. What is does; allows startup to pivot and find other areas of growth (hopefully really fast), which is not easy or guaranteed to work either. Recent examples like WeWork, Zume and many more... I must also add, sometimes not everything that one sees fits in the definition of TAM... by true definition of TAM, AirBnB and UBER would have been a lifestyle business when they were first started....

wyclif 7y ago

I hate the phrase "lifestyle business." Look: it's a business. No, it's not going to make VCs billionaires. But it's a perfectly respectable business nonetheless. Nothing wrong with that.

rokhayakebe 7y ago
Do not worry. There is only a tiny group of people who know the meaning of the term.
bananamerica 7y ago
So I went to Wikipedia and found this definition: "A lifestyle business is a business set up and run by its founders primarily with the aim of sustaining a particular level of income and no more; or to provide a foundation from which to enjoy a particular lifestyle." Seems like a useful concept. What's wrong with it?
- zerkten 7y ago
  It's a useful concept when used appropriately. There is nuance that you are missing. When used it's a description that the business owners provide based on how they run their business, then it's OK. When you use it to describe someone else's business it's often considered a slur (unless they've previously shared this with you and you know that fact.) Many smaller companies are not actually lifestyle businesses although that term is thrown around here. The owners may be part-time because they actually operate a group of companies, grow niche companies to sell outside of the VC world, etc. They are indistinguishable from lifestyle businesses, but the owners are looking to do a lot more than sustain a level of income.
  - bananamerica 7y ago
    > When you use it to describe someone else's business it's often considered a slur I see. I find it a bit unsettling that in some cultures stating that a business has priorities other than profit at all costs is considered a slur.