7 ms·

Arguably, the people aren't upset that there is a female-oriented space, but rather that the same kind of male-oriented space would likely be seen as "problemat

by ronsor 7y ago

Arguably, the people aren't upset that there is a female-oriented space, but rather that the same kind of male-oriented space would likely be seen as "problematic" or "hostile."

whatshisface 7y ago
Would anyone really want to join a male-oriented space? Most guys probably wish they could get girls to come to their D&D sessions...
- michaelt 7y ago
  Historically, there have been all-male golf clubs, gentlemens' clubs† and working mens' clubs. So there's been demand there at some points in history. And I assume there are men-only gay bars and erectile-dysfunction support groups. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%27s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%27s not strip clubs.
  - klipt 7y ago
    And didn't feminists call most of those men-only groups sexist and demand they be opened up to women?
    - dvdhnt 7y ago
      I totally see this perspective. My hunch (no evidence) is that it was fine until people started using these groups for discussing business/politicking. So, basically the groups were corrupted. Once business or decision making starts to happen, the groups become exclusionary. That's my best guess.
      - Proziam 7y ago
        Unfortunately, once enough people come together they almost universally decide to do something "productive." It's not uncommon for folks from the same church/school/club to go into business together, for example. The same is true for 'feminist' groups as well. Plenty of politics and business gets discussed and it's often deemed "politically incorrect" to criticize such things in the current climate. Personally, I am pro-groups of any kind. People should be free to associate in life or in business with others who share their views and values. However, I do wish that there wasn't such a negative view of groups/systems men create or join. Another commenter mentioned men's shelters, but that's just the tip of the iceberg on that particular issue.
- dvdhnt 7y ago
  In general? Yes. I attend a weekly men's group and helps immensely. It helps me navigate my life. People of all types can benefit from small groups where they can spitball and discuss life. This is how knowledge exchange happens. Professionally... there is no benefit to separate men from women for me. I don't need to know how to be a good male developer, I need to work on being a good developer, period. That said, I'm not going to fight against a group or organization like this. I think that as the internet connects us, it's harder to find small groups. Additionally, I think some people have experiences they need to discuss, positive and negative, that are of social relevance for them and others. So, if women feel a certain way in the workplace and need to make a place for discussion, that is totally fine. It shouldn't be seen as a slight to others. I think it's just part of what makes us human. That's why we naturally separate into groups, tribes, families, nations, etc. This isn't some argument for men vs women or nationalism, please don't take it that way. I'm only saying that a space where you can iterate/discuss/be heard is important. More often than not, the size of the group is a primary factor.
- hadtodoit 7y ago
  Religious reasons, poor social skills with women, avoiding sexual tensions that naturally arise in such an environment.
  - ygjb 7y ago
    > Religion For the most part, leaving that one because there is a whole rat's nest of complexity to untangle that varies by jurisdiction and region of the world. Religious freedom is a generally well-respected (from a legal perspective) philosophy in many countries, but at the end of the day, in most of these countries, those freedoms are seeing a great deal of erosion due to the progression of human rights. > poor social skills with women Frankly, if someone is bad at speaking with women, then there is an issue of individual social skills. I would argue that if someone is "bad at speaking with women", they are bad at speaking with people in general, but they just assume that because of gender, that they can set aside or be forgiven their poor social skills. > avoiding sexual tension that naturally arise No. Sexual tension does not "naturally arise" between men and women any more than gay sexual tension arises between men and women participating in gender exclusive communities. If "sexual tension" is a problem for a heterosexual individuals when they are in a mixed gender environment, but not in a restricted gender environment, then those individuals have a self-control problem, not a sexual tension problem, since there is always the possibility that someone from the same gender will find them attractive and create "sexual tension". I don't know if you meant something else, but
    - hadtodoit 7y ago
      Anecdotally I would disagree, I know plenty of men and women who just can't find the right words when it comes to the opposite sex but have no trouble navigating social situations otherwise. I'm skeptical that you've never come across such people. Sexual tension occurs in all situations that pit people together for any significant length of time, regardless of sexual orientation. It is by definition a result of self-control, I'm not sure your definition of sexual tension is the same as mine based on this statement. It is unexpressed attraction usually because the situation may be inappropriate. You seem opposed to the idea of gender-exclusive spaces. So I have to ask, do you disagree with women's only gyms? Men's only? Gender specific locker rooms?
- reroute1 7y ago
  Of course people would. There's many contexts where women just don't fit in with men, like most athletics which have different leagues and groups for different genders. And more over even in a space where it's not gender specific, like DnD, some may just prefer the company of men regardless of the given activity. Just as women do...
danso 7y ago
Ostensibly, arguing the need for a male-oriented space implies that the default/mainstream spaces aren't already male-oriented. AFAIK, there isn't a huge outcry against male nurse associations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN
- klipt 7y ago
  There's certainly been outcry over opening men-only domestic violence shelters (because it was thought they'd draw away some government funding that could instead be used for even more women's shelters). Currently men make up approximately a third of victims but have approximately 0% of the shelters.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  Could we have a "Men of Irish Descent" group? I suspect that would cause all kinds of cries of racism and sexism. There's this strange sort of argument that some groups (men, white people, cis people, thin people, etc) have some kind of ephemeral power and therefore should be denied certain privileges like forming exclusive groups - but these privileges are ok for some other people. That's not equality in any sense of the word.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    it's funny that the recent SJW stuff has made it palatable to argue for white-only groups, when before all that stuff hit no one in their right mind would have argued for it due to the implications of racism. Those implications haven't disappeared, it's just that if we really think it's important for groups to be able to wall themselves off based upon race, it should be the right of whites to do it as well. Goes to show just how damaging that movement has been.
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      Celtic identity exists precisely because Celtic people were previously considered to be subhuman savages, fit only to be ruled over by those of more noble stock - which argument was used to justify centuries of oppression and multiple genocides. Any Celtic person demanding 'rights for whites' is essentially ignoring their own history in favor of being the guard dog on a social estate.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128931.

by ronsor 7y ago

Arguably, the people aren't upset that there is a female-oriented space, but rather that the same kind of male-oriented space would likely be seen as "problematic" or "hostile."

whatshisface 7y ago

Would anyone really want to join a male-oriented space? Most guys probably wish they could get girls to come to their D&D sessions...

michaelt 7y ago
Historically, there have been all-male golf clubs, gentlemens' clubs† and working mens' clubs. So there's been demand there at some points in history. And I assume there are men-only gay bars and erectile-dysfunction support groups. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%27s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%27s not strip clubs.
- klipt 7y ago
  And didn't feminists call most of those men-only groups sexist and demand they be opened up to women?
  - dvdhnt 7y ago
    I totally see this perspective. My hunch (no evidence) is that it was fine until people started using these groups for discussing business/politicking. So, basically the groups were corrupted. Once business or decision making starts to happen, the groups become exclusionary. That's my best guess.
    - Proziam 7y ago
      Unfortunately, once enough people come together they almost universally decide to do something "productive." It's not uncommon for folks from the same church/school/club to go into business together, for example. The same is true for 'feminist' groups as well. Plenty of politics and business gets discussed and it's often deemed "politically incorrect" to criticize such things in the current climate. Personally, I am pro-groups of any kind. People should be free to associate in life or in business with others who share their views and values. However, I do wish that there wasn't such a negative view of groups/systems men create or join. Another commenter mentioned men's shelters, but that's just the tip of the iceberg on that particular issue.
dvdhnt 7y ago
In general? Yes. I attend a weekly men's group and helps immensely. It helps me navigate my life. People of all types can benefit from small groups where they can spitball and discuss life. This is how knowledge exchange happens. Professionally... there is no benefit to separate men from women for me. I don't need to know how to be a good male developer, I need to work on being a good developer, period. That said, I'm not going to fight against a group or organization like this. I think that as the internet connects us, it's harder to find small groups. Additionally, I think some people have experiences they need to discuss, positive and negative, that are of social relevance for them and others. So, if women feel a certain way in the workplace and need to make a place for discussion, that is totally fine. It shouldn't be seen as a slight to others. I think it's just part of what makes us human. That's why we naturally separate into groups, tribes, families, nations, etc. This isn't some argument for men vs women or nationalism, please don't take it that way. I'm only saying that a space where you can iterate/discuss/be heard is important. More often than not, the size of the group is a primary factor.
hadtodoit 7y ago
Religious reasons, poor social skills with women, avoiding sexual tensions that naturally arise in such an environment.
- ygjb 7y ago
  > Religion For the most part, leaving that one because there is a whole rat's nest of complexity to untangle that varies by jurisdiction and region of the world. Religious freedom is a generally well-respected (from a legal perspective) philosophy in many countries, but at the end of the day, in most of these countries, those freedoms are seeing a great deal of erosion due to the progression of human rights. > poor social skills with women Frankly, if someone is bad at speaking with women, then there is an issue of individual social skills. I would argue that if someone is "bad at speaking with women", they are bad at speaking with people in general, but they just assume that because of gender, that they can set aside or be forgiven their poor social skills. > avoiding sexual tension that naturally arise No. Sexual tension does not "naturally arise" between men and women any more than gay sexual tension arises between men and women participating in gender exclusive communities. If "sexual tension" is a problem for a heterosexual individuals when they are in a mixed gender environment, but not in a restricted gender environment, then those individuals have a self-control problem, not a sexual tension problem, since there is always the possibility that someone from the same gender will find them attractive and create "sexual tension". I don't know if you meant something else, but
  - hadtodoit 7y ago
    Anecdotally I would disagree, I know plenty of men and women who just can't find the right words when it comes to the opposite sex but have no trouble navigating social situations otherwise. I'm skeptical that you've never come across such people. Sexual tension occurs in all situations that pit people together for any significant length of time, regardless of sexual orientation. It is by definition a result of self-control, I'm not sure your definition of sexual tension is the same as mine based on this statement. It is unexpressed attraction usually because the situation may be inappropriate. You seem opposed to the idea of gender-exclusive spaces. So I have to ask, do you disagree with women's only gyms? Men's only? Gender specific locker rooms?
reroute1 7y ago
Of course people would. There's many contexts where women just don't fit in with men, like most athletics which have different leagues and groups for different genders. And more over even in a space where it's not gender specific, like DnD, some may just prefer the company of men regardless of the given activity. Just as women do...

danso 7y ago

Ostensibly, arguing the need for a male-oriented space implies that the default/mainstream spaces aren't already male-oriented. AFAIK, there isn't a huge outcry against male nurse associations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN

klipt 7y ago
There's certainly been outcry over opening men-only domestic violence shelters (because it was thought they'd draw away some government funding that could instead be used for even more women's shelters). Currently men make up approximately a third of victims but have approximately 0% of the shelters.
vorpalhex 7y ago
Could we have a "Men of Irish Descent" group? I suspect that would cause all kinds of cries of racism and sexism. There's this strange sort of argument that some groups (men, white people, cis people, thin people, etc) have some kind of ephemeral power and therefore should be denied certain privileges like forming exclusive groups - but these privileges are ok for some other people. That's not equality in any sense of the word.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  it's funny that the recent SJW stuff has made it palatable to argue for white-only groups, when before all that stuff hit no one in their right mind would have argued for it due to the implications of racism. Those implications haven't disappeared, it's just that if we really think it's important for groups to be able to wall themselves off based upon race, it should be the right of whites to do it as well. Goes to show just how damaging that movement has been.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Celtic identity exists precisely because Celtic people were previously considered to be subhuman savages, fit only to be ruled over by those of more noble stock - which argument was used to justify centuries of oppression and multiple genocides. Any Celtic person demanding 'rights for whites' is essentially ignoring their own history in favor of being the guard dog on a social estate.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128931.