5 ms·

> It sounds like they had to torture several mice for days to get this result. The paper's very explicit on how this is done - they injected the mice either wi

> It sounds like they had to torture several mice for days to get this result. The paper's very explicit on how this is done - they injected the mice either with RTX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resiniferatoxin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resiniferatoxin, a functional capcasin analog) or saline (at random) to induce a stress response, and countered it in some mice with buprenorphine to rule out false positives. So, yeah, some of them got to deal with nothing, some dealt with a burning sensation, some dealt with burning followed by bliss, and some felt nothing but bliss. But, at the end of the day they are lab mice, and there are plenty that are being subjected to worse treatment for less laudable scientific ends than understanding the physiological responses to stress and pain.

tehjoker 7y ago
I mean, I'm a science person I get that. I don't think having a scientific procedure negates the fact that some unlucky ones were essentially tortured. Idk, maybe I am becoming more uncomfortable in general with animal experiments but the ones I participate in, the animals are anesthetized when something painful happens. Certainly, we are choosing to benefit human life over animal life, and certainly they have a much shorter life span, but I do feel we should be minimizing harm and refusing to cross certain lines. If someone that wasn't a professional said "look how quickly these mice turn white when you cause them searing pain" you'd have a different opinion of them.
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  > We should be minimizing harm and refusing to cross certain lines. Do you think the researchers in this paper failed or minimize harm or crossed certain lines? If so, where would you draw them? If conducted or published in the US, they almost certainly went through an independent animal use review.
  - tehjoker 7y ago
    I believe they went through a review and passed. I'm not questioning that the process was followed, I'm questioning our standards that are applied in process.
    - s1artibartfast 7y ago
      Fair enough. Do you have a specific question regarding the standards, or an opinion on if this should have been allowed? In my experience, the standard for mammal studies is the experiment must be of scientific merit and minimize unnecessary harm to the animals. nonhuman primates are treated separate and have a much higher bar.

tehjoker 7y ago

I mean, I'm a science person I get that. I don't think having a scientific procedure negates the fact that some unlucky ones were essentially tortured. Idk, maybe I am becoming more uncomfortable in general with animal experiments but the ones I participate in, the animals are anesthetized when something painful happens. Certainly, we are choosing to benefit human life over animal life, and certainly they have a much shorter life span, but I do feel we should be minimizing harm and refusing to cross certain lines. If someone that wasn't a professional said "look how quickly these mice turn white when you cause them searing pain" you'd have a different opinion of them.

s1artibartfast 7y ago
> We should be minimizing harm and refusing to cross certain lines. Do you think the researchers in this paper failed or minimize harm or crossed certain lines? If so, where would you draw them? If conducted or published in the US, they almost certainly went through an independent animal use review.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  I believe they went through a review and passed. I'm not questioning that the process was followed, I'm questioning our standards that are applied in process.
  - s1artibartfast 7y ago
    Fair enough. Do you have a specific question regarding the standards, or an opinion on if this should have been allowed? In my experience, the standard for mammal studies is the experiment must be of scientific merit and minimize unnecessary harm to the animals. nonhuman primates are treated separate and have a much higher bar.