3 ms·

I'm Korean so I glad to see someone speaks out this. Actually it was rather inevitable, partially because of the U.S. gov that time. The Korean gov wanted to g

I'm Korean so I glad to see someone speaks out this. Actually it was rather inevitable, partially because of the U.S. gov that time. The Korean gov wanted to grow e-commerce/e-banking in 1999 but the American gov did not allow to export cipher higher than 40 bits. As a result the Korean gov had to develop its own 128 bits cipher (SEED). It was even before AES/SSL/TLS were introduced so the whole crypto stack was implemented using ActiveX. I would say it was quite pioneer in 1999 but since then the gov don't even dare to replace the crypto policies. Now we are stuck at this in 2020.

zamadatix 7y ago
SSL had been available in IE since version 2 with Windows 95 it was just the high encryption pack that was export blocked and needed for higher bit ciphers until 5.5 released in 2000. I'm just guessing it was easier to do everything through ActiveX than trying to add the cipher to Windows/IE as a 3rd party. That's amazing it's still used per policy, I never would have imagined. Edit: clarification on which parts were blocked and internationally available.
- kbumsik 7y ago
  > higher bit ciphers required the high encryption pack until 5.5 released in 2000 That thing exactly was export-restricted and was available only in U.S. and Canada: https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/159/Q159709/ https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/159/Q159709/ But it was true that SSL was introduced before 1999. Thanks for the correction.
  - zamadatix 7y ago
    Yes, sorry didn't mean to make that sound like the high encryption pack was available internationally I meant to point out that was the only component of the built in encryption stack export blocked. Updated the comment to clarify.
bane 7y ago
What I think is kind of interesting is that South Korea arguably had/has the technical know-how to have built it's own domestic browser with SEED and good Hangul/Hanja language support built into it and ended up with a very siloed alternative web. As an example, I'm thinking of the ubiquity of the Hangul Word Processor over Microsoft Word (which apparently has been around for over 30 years!) which gained near ubiquity in its domestic market. However, I think the present situation is possibly the better one as a siloed, South Korea only web, separate and distinct from the rest of the Web, would end up being a much harder one to eventually migrate to the regular global web ecosystem vs. the current problem of just getting banks to stop using SEED and moving users to modern browsers.
- lifthrasiir 7y ago
  > As an example, I'm thinking of the ubiquity of the Hangul Word Processor over Microsoft Word (which apparently has been around for over 30 years!) which gained near ubiquity in its domestic market. There are two major factors in the ubiquity of HWP: 1. Its use of the de facto standard format in the SK government (the de jure standard is the ODF since 2007, but its use is virtually nonexistent). This stems from the fact that it was the most viable word processor supporting Hangul the script back in 1990s. 2. Its excellent support of table-based layout. HWP is a decent word processor in comparison to MS Word, and in some cases it is even superior. Koreans used to produce lots of documents based on tables [1] and HWP's UX was specially tailored to them. MS Word lagged behind for a long time, probably because this use case is not common in English worlds. [1] You can search for "이력서" (résumé) to see what I mean. Even a plain document tends to be styled in this way.
pcr910303 7y ago
Great to see another Korean here! :-) > I would say it was quite pioneer in 1999 but since then the gov don't even dare to replace the crypto policies. Now we are stuck at this in 2020. AFAIK, the government removed the SEED-only policy some time ago (in the early 2010s) but it’s the price of the system infrastructure that makes them keep using the old, ActiveX based systems. I’m personally thankful for smartphone’s to come, as the banks started to consider implementing support for other operating systems. If it wasn’t the abundance of smartphones, I believe there might have not been any non-windows/IE support. Its much better nowadays, with multiple startups in the finance space like Toss, Kakao, etc...
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  Don't you fear running into the trap that instead of IE/ActiveX you end up with only support for Android and IOS¹? That's not quite as bad of course, but it's still limiting in terms of software freedom. 1: Or, more probable, support for modern web browsers on any OS, but with (2FA) authentication handled through proprietary and required Android or IOS apps.
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    > Or, more probable, support for modern web browsers on any OS, but with (2FA) authentication handled through proprietary and required Android or IOS apps. That’s actually a pretty accurate explanation of currently what’s happening, but it’s much better than before as macOS/Linux support is also coming too. > That's not quite as bad of course, but it's still limiting in terms of software freedom. I’m not the person who hates programs that aren’t open source or “free”, so for me just being able to tell my friends to use macOS or Linux is a pretty great progression.
    - Freak_NL 7y ago
      I'm not as much bothered by the software being non-free, rather making the ownership of either an Android or IOS smartphone a requirement for digital citizenship too solve the 2FA puzzle is something that worries me. We're moving in that direction in the Netherlands with our national citizen's accounts (DigiD: mandatory if you want to file taxes, gain access to your health care records, or handle your insurance digitally).

zamadatix 7y ago

SSL had been available in IE since version 2 with Windows 95 it was just the high encryption pack that was export blocked and needed for higher bit ciphers until 5.5 released in 2000. I'm just guessing it was easier to do everything through ActiveX than trying to add the cipher to Windows/IE as a 3rd party. That's amazing it's still used per policy, I never would have imagined. Edit: clarification on which parts were blocked and internationally available.

kbumsik 7y ago
> higher bit ciphers required the high encryption pack until 5.5 released in 2000 That thing exactly was export-restricted and was available only in U.S. and Canada: https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/159/Q159709/ https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/159/Q159709/ But it was true that SSL was introduced before 1999. Thanks for the correction.
- zamadatix 7y ago
  Yes, sorry didn't mean to make that sound like the high encryption pack was available internationally I meant to point out that was the only component of the built in encryption stack export blocked. Updated the comment to clarify.

bane 7y ago

What I think is kind of interesting is that South Korea arguably had/has the technical know-how to have built it's own domestic browser with SEED and good Hangul/Hanja language support built into it and ended up with a very siloed alternative web. As an example, I'm thinking of the ubiquity of the Hangul Word Processor over Microsoft Word (which apparently has been around for over 30 years!) which gained near ubiquity in its domestic market. However, I think the present situation is possibly the better one as a siloed, South Korea only web, separate and distinct from the rest of the Web, would end up being a much harder one to eventually migrate to the regular global web ecosystem vs. the current problem of just getting banks to stop using SEED and moving users to modern browsers.

lifthrasiir 7y ago
> As an example, I'm thinking of the ubiquity of the Hangul Word Processor over Microsoft Word (which apparently has been around for over 30 years!) which gained near ubiquity in its domestic market. There are two major factors in the ubiquity of HWP: 1. Its use of the de facto standard format in the SK government (the de jure standard is the ODF since 2007, but its use is virtually nonexistent). This stems from the fact that it was the most viable word processor supporting Hangul the script back in 1990s. 2. Its excellent support of table-based layout. HWP is a decent word processor in comparison to MS Word, and in some cases it is even superior. Koreans used to produce lots of documents based on tables [1] and HWP's UX was specially tailored to them. MS Word lagged behind for a long time, probably because this use case is not common in English worlds. [1] You can search for "이력서" (résumé) to see what I mean. Even a plain document tends to be styled in this way.

pcr910303 7y ago

Great to see another Korean here! :-) > I would say it was quite pioneer in 1999 but since then the gov don't even dare to replace the crypto policies. Now we are stuck at this in 2020. AFAIK, the government removed the SEED-only policy some time ago (in the early 2010s) but it’s the price of the system infrastructure that makes them keep using the old, ActiveX based systems. I’m personally thankful for smartphone’s to come, as the banks started to consider implementing support for other operating systems. If it wasn’t the abundance of smartphones, I believe there might have not been any non-windows/IE support. Its much better nowadays, with multiple startups in the finance space like Toss, Kakao, etc...

Freak_NL 7y ago
Don't you fear running into the trap that instead of IE/ActiveX you end up with only support for Android and IOS¹? That's not quite as bad of course, but it's still limiting in terms of software freedom. 1: Or, more probable, support for modern web browsers on any OS, but with (2FA) authentication handled through proprietary and required Android or IOS apps.
- pcr910303 7y ago
  > Or, more probable, support for modern web browsers on any OS, but with (2FA) authentication handled through proprietary and required Android or IOS apps. That’s actually a pretty accurate explanation of currently what’s happening, but it’s much better than before as macOS/Linux support is also coming too. > That's not quite as bad of course, but it's still limiting in terms of software freedom. I’m not the person who hates programs that aren’t open source or “free”, so for me just being able to tell my friends to use macOS or Linux is a pretty great progression.
  - Freak_NL 7y ago
    I'm not as much bothered by the software being non-free, rather making the ownership of either an Android or IOS smartphone a requirement for digital citizenship too solve the 2FA puzzle is something that worries me. We're moving in that direction in the Netherlands with our national citizen's accounts (DigiD: mandatory if you want to file taxes, gain access to your health care records, or handle your insurance digitally).