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> Require everyone - computer science majors included - to read and discuss classic literature, history, and philosophy. These books/things taught me nothing (

> Require everyone - computer science majors included - to read and discuss classic literature, history, and philosophy. These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature sometimes is able to teach you one or two relevant things - even though I admit that ratio "text-to-read" to "important lessons learned" is rather low (i.e. you have to read immense amounts to get few important lessons). Because I love science-fiction, this is rather unimportant to me, but for people who follow my advice and now start to read science-fiction literature to learn some ethics lessons will be deeply disappointed if they have no deep love for the science-fiction genre.

_bxg1 7y ago
I won't say science-fiction never has substantive ethical content, but one definitely needs more than that. > they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago It's clear you're missing the point: ethics that are specific to a given technology, or even a specific social structure, are of limited value. If a person's moral system is going to be rich enough to apply itself to new technologies and situations that nobody has ever faced before, one needs a broad perspective on the human condition. A deeper understanding of right and wrong and the in-between. Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not.
- polishdude20 7y ago
  I think a beneficial course would be one where the students learn about the history of how controlling certain governments and malevolent agencies can be. History can tell us a lot about how bad it can get and the implications. People nowadays are forgetting the things that happened back in Russia under communist rule for example. We like to believe our information is in good hands and won't be used for nefarious purposes. We have forgotten how evil humans can be under certain circumstances.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not. Very different civilizations imply very different ethical questions that are relevant. I just say that the global (network) interconnectness brought a huge plethora of new ethical questions that were never relevant in the past - exactly because they were science-fiction at that time. That is why I mentioned science-fiction literature as far more relevant further above in the thread.
groby_b 7y ago
If you think they are about questions relevant centuries ago, I'd really like to know what you think the questions are. Many of the "classics" of classic literature (no pun intended) talk about questions that are perpetually relevant, and the same goes for lots of things that fall under history and philosophy. I don't debate there's a lot of garbage out there that falls under "it's old, so we'll teach it", but I can assure you that the vast majority does speak about relevant topics. And like in SF, the ones that endure are the ones that speak most clearly. In general, all stories teach about empathy - how can I put myself in somebody else's shoes. If you found a better way to learn that via SF, more power to you. The classics are still relevant because they provide the foundation upon all this is built, and so they become important once you discuss things in a wider circle. (E.g. I might like fantasy, and not have a solid enough grounding in SF. We need to find some common ground. Via acclamation, the world has picked literature/history/philosophy as that common ground) And so I'd encourage you to maybe go out and give some of it a try :) If you care for recommendations: For philosophy, I recommend "What does it all mean" by Thomas Nagel. I don't have a great recommendation for History - I like "By Steppe, Desert and Ocean", but it's incomplete & somewhat eurocentric. True world history in a single book is probably asking a bit much. Same goes for literature, but even more so - it's really a matter of taste. I adore "The Master and Margarita", but beware, it's weird :) Grapes of Wrath is a moving and v. relevant one. The Illiad is spectacular, but I only know German translations, never read it in English.
- techopoly 7y ago
  I like this comment. What you're describing is essentially the Great Conversation, and there aren't enough participants. But, the door is always open!
jkingsbery 7y ago
> These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. / On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature... When I read these books, I learn nothing (nil) about ethics, they are about questions that are relevant centuries from now. I kid. More seriously though... the debate about whether a democracy should invade a country in order to ensure it's security while it's main enemy is a completely different country isn't a 21st century concern: the Athenians debated the same thing before invading Syracuse. What should the role of rich people be in a republic with vast wealth inequality and a rapidly urbanizing population during a time of increasing demagoguery and populism isn't just a concern in the 21st century US election for the office of President, it was also a concern in the 2nd century BC Roman election for the office of Tribune. We could come up with a new analysis about the trade-offs between a government of elected officials coming from the people and one consisting of specialized elites trained for the task, but Plato summarized the main arguments already in the Republic. The list goes on. I would sum up saying there's nothing new under the sun, but someone already beat me to it[1]. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%3A9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%...
LilBytes 7y ago
Get everyone to read Daemon!
tarsinge 7y ago
> “Or is it your reputation that's bothering you? But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands. The people who praise us; how capricious they are, how arbitrary. And the tiny region it takes place. The whole earth a point in space - and most of it uninhabited.” > “Soon you’ll be ashes, or bones. A mere name, at most—and even that is just a sound, an echo. The things we want in life are empty, stale, and trivial. Dogs snarling at each other. Quarreling children—laughing and then bursting into tears a moment later. Trust, shame, justice, truth—“gone from the earth and only found in heaven.” Why are you still here? Sensory objects are shifting and unstable; our senses dim and easily deceived; the soul itself a decoction of the blood; fame in a world like this is worthless. —And so? Wait for it patiently—annihilation or metamorphosis. —And until that time comes—what? Honor and revere the gods, treat human beings as they deserve, be tolerant with others and strict with yourself. Remember, nothing belongs to you but your flesh and blood—and nothing else is under your control.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
tripzilch 7y ago
Ethics is a field in philosophy. If you study that, you will learn about ethics. Or your professor really sucks, but it's not even hard to make a course in Ethics at least somewhat fun. The trolley problem writes itself..

_bxg1 7y ago

I won't say science-fiction never has substantive ethical content, but one definitely needs more than that. > they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago It's clear you're missing the point: ethics that are specific to a given technology, or even a specific social structure, are of limited value. If a person's moral system is going to be rich enough to apply itself to new technologies and situations that nobody has ever faced before, one needs a broad perspective on the human condition. A deeper understanding of right and wrong and the in-between. Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not.

polishdude20 7y ago
I think a beneficial course would be one where the students learn about the history of how controlling certain governments and malevolent agencies can be. History can tell us a lot about how bad it can get and the implications. People nowadays are forgetting the things that happened back in Russia under communist rule for example. We like to believe our information is in good hands and won't be used for nefarious purposes. We have forgotten how evil humans can be under certain circumstances.
wolfgke 7y ago
> Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not. Very different civilizations imply very different ethical questions that are relevant. I just say that the global (network) interconnectness brought a huge plethora of new ethical questions that were never relevant in the past - exactly because they were science-fiction at that time. That is why I mentioned science-fiction literature as far more relevant further above in the thread.

groby_b 7y ago

If you think they are about questions relevant centuries ago, I'd really like to know what you think the questions are. Many of the "classics" of classic literature (no pun intended) talk about questions that are perpetually relevant, and the same goes for lots of things that fall under history and philosophy. I don't debate there's a lot of garbage out there that falls under "it's old, so we'll teach it", but I can assure you that the vast majority does speak about relevant topics. And like in SF, the ones that endure are the ones that speak most clearly. In general, all stories teach about empathy - how can I put myself in somebody else's shoes. If you found a better way to learn that via SF, more power to you. The classics are still relevant because they provide the foundation upon all this is built, and so they become important once you discuss things in a wider circle. (E.g. I might like fantasy, and not have a solid enough grounding in SF. We need to find some common ground. Via acclamation, the world has picked literature/history/philosophy as that common ground) And so I'd encourage you to maybe go out and give some of it a try :) If you care for recommendations: For philosophy, I recommend "What does it all mean" by Thomas Nagel. I don't have a great recommendation for History - I like "By Steppe, Desert and Ocean", but it's incomplete & somewhat eurocentric. True world history in a single book is probably asking a bit much. Same goes for literature, but even more so - it's really a matter of taste. I adore "The Master and Margarita", but beware, it's weird :) Grapes of Wrath is a moving and v. relevant one. The Illiad is spectacular, but I only know German translations, never read it in English.

techopoly 7y ago
I like this comment. What you're describing is essentially the Great Conversation, and there aren't enough participants. But, the door is always open!

jkingsbery 7y ago

> These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. / On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature... When I read these books, I learn nothing (nil) about ethics, they are about questions that are relevant centuries from now. I kid. More seriously though... the debate about whether a democracy should invade a country in order to ensure it's security while it's main enemy is a completely different country isn't a 21st century concern: the Athenians debated the same thing before invading Syracuse. What should the role of rich people be in a republic with vast wealth inequality and a rapidly urbanizing population during a time of increasing demagoguery and populism isn't just a concern in the 21st century US election for the office of President, it was also a concern in the 2nd century BC Roman election for the office of Tribune. We could come up with a new analysis about the trade-offs between a government of elected officials coming from the people and one consisting of specialized elites trained for the task, but Plato summarized the main arguments already in the Republic. The list goes on. I would sum up saying there's nothing new under the sun, but someone already beat me to it[1]. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%3A9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%...

LilBytes 7y ago

Get everyone to read Daemon!

tarsinge 7y ago

> “Or is it your reputation that's bothering you? But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands. The people who praise us; how capricious they are, how arbitrary. And the tiny region it takes place. The whole earth a point in space - and most of it uninhabited.” > “Soon you’ll be ashes, or bones. A mere name, at most—and even that is just a sound, an echo. The things we want in life are empty, stale, and trivial. Dogs snarling at each other. Quarreling children—laughing and then bursting into tears a moment later. Trust, shame, justice, truth—“gone from the earth and only found in heaven.” Why are you still here? Sensory objects are shifting and unstable; our senses dim and easily deceived; the soul itself a decoction of the blood; fame in a world like this is worthless. —And so? Wait for it patiently—annihilation or metamorphosis. —And until that time comes—what? Honor and revere the gods, treat human beings as they deserve, be tolerant with others and strict with yourself. Remember, nothing belongs to you but your flesh and blood—and nothing else is under your control.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

tripzilch 7y ago

Ethics is a field in philosophy. If you study that, you will learn about ethics. Or your professor really sucks, but it's not even hard to make a course in Ethics at least somewhat fun. The trolley problem writes itself..