4 ms·

This sounds like a first-world comment, those open-air markets form because the merchants are subsistence farmers or people living outside the city without a lo

This sounds like a first-world comment, those open-air markets form because the merchants are subsistence farmers or people living outside the city without a lot of money and have to travel into the city. The farming in China isn't as industrialized or corporatized as in America and you will encounter poorer farmers or small traders who basically sell at these markets without having to spend a lot of money for rent because it isn't a high-margin business. Think farmers' market but filled with poor farmers. These merchants aren't forming open-air markets for fun, it's because they have to. If you force them out, then you will end up destroying poor people's lives. The food and grocery companies in China who are selling in supermarkets are already in the supermarkets. EDIT: I dislike eating 'exotic' meats and discourage the practice, however there's a fine line when you enforce the ban live animal market policy. Note that it has been enacted in Wuhan when the disease started. I also support stronger regulations and animal protections on these live animal markets and am not deflecting blame from these live animal markets but straight-up banning is not the right solution.

whalesalad 7y ago
At some point it’s the job of the government to protect people when they can’t protect themselves. Live and let live is fine until your actions are causing people to die all over the world due to completely new, evolved and deadly viruses. All the brutal shit starts in places like this where humans and animals are mixing in dirty environments and freak meetings literally birth a destructive new threat instantly. So on one hand you can interpret this as a “first world comment” but on the other hand you need to acknowledge that this level of negligence is no longer limited and isolated in scope to one tiny part of the world. It goes global overnight. There is absolutely no excuse for that.
- forkLding 7y ago
  It's about tradeoffs, if you ban live animal markets all over China for long periods of time, you will instantly cause far greater destruction on peoples' daily lives in China as people will suffer from poverty. There's probably millions of people going to go hungry because they lost their source of income and poor farmers in China don't have that much social mobility to get another job.
  - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
    And it's a part of their culture as well. They probably use these markets to socialize, these are primitive social networks and strengthen ties between neighbors and visitors alike.
    - supernova87a 7y ago
      I think you and commenter above have some weird romanticized (and uninformed) notion of simple country farmers who are scraping a living, country peasant style, trading stories on their grizzled/smiling faces as they keep a 100 year old family tradition alive. The Wuhan market in question was a professional concrete block building with heavy trucks bringing in stock and organized stalls with fluorescent lighting and walls. I'm sure they value your concern for their primitive social networks as they pay each other on Alipay and swap family stories on Wechat. My advice is to stop using your desire for some fiction to be true to tell people how you think things shouldn't be done.
      - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
        I'm always suspicious of "modernization" types like yourself. Mainly because they're quite often fascists in disguise. Populism and libertarian principles go hand in hand, because ultimately they leave the individual alone to live their life as they see best. They don't need your help, neocolonialist.
        dang 7y ago
        Personal attacks and name-calling will get you banned here, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. We've had to ask you this before.
      - dang 7y ago
        You've got the kernel of a fine comment here, but the first and last bits cross into personal attack, which is not ok on HN. Especially the last bit. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  > All the brutal shit starts in places like this where humans and animals are mixing in dirty environments and freak meetings literally birth a destructive new threat instantly. The solution isn’t as easy as you think it is. These “mixing areas” are part of their culture. It’s part of their cultural context. Trying to impose Western cleanliness standards will take a very long time, it was tried in India with “Poo in the Loo” and I guarantee you there are people still taking a shit in open areas. And not washing their hands after either.
  - whalesalad 7y ago
    > These “mixing areas” are part of their culture. It’s part of their cultural context. Trying to impose Western cleanliness standards will take a very long time Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to let your citizens shit on the side of the road and not wash their hands, or run open markets where human/animal waste and raw meat are mixed -- that is cool but then we need to say sorry no more planes are gonna be allowed from Wuhan because y'all don't know how to act.
    - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
      First off, the US lets people shit on the side of the road too, maybe you've never visited SF. My point is that having a regulation does not entail its enforcement or its compliance by the populace.
supernova87a 7y ago
This sounds like an uber-liberal comment, from the mentality that no one should be blamed and no one should be made to change their behavior because it's not their fault. By that logic we would never be able to have any regulations at all. There are objective health and safety standards that countries need to impose to move their development forward. As the other commenter stated below, when it affects others internationally is one such time when the need becomes painfully obvious. People will deal, and move forward. You underestimate how people will deal with it. China overnight banned gasoline powered motorcycles and mopeds, in the name of public health. Show me how that destroyed the lives of millions of people. Sometimes you can't live with all the excuses why it can't be done, and just do it and see why it can.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- infinity0 7y ago
  You need to come up with an alternative for people to keep getting their income, before imposing knee-jerk regulations. Which is something that I'd guess you've accused "uber-liberals" of before.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    One idea might be that China could some of the money they're currently using to build their overseas empire to instead renovate these local markets, and the farmers could continue operating but in a lower risk fashion. Not that this would ever happen, but I doubt it's economically impossible.
  - asfarley 7y ago
    No, I don't think an alternative is necessary. It might be enough to say 'this harm is unacceptable; finding an alternative is the people's responsibility'. For example, this is how the law treats people who sell drugs. Do you make the same argument re: drug dealers needing an alternative source of income before we criminalize it?
phlipphlops 7y ago
I'm not versed in economics, but the solution doesn't have to be outright banning open air markets. Perhaps an alternative is putting work into building the infrastructure that would uplift the poorer farmers to a point where they wouldn't need these open air markets, and can instead support their livelihoods with less dangerous means.
tidenly 7y ago
These western romanticized talks of China like its some cute little network of farm villages while simultaneously calling people out for their "first-world takes" is really only showing your own ignorance. Wuhan isn't some backwater poor city, it's one of the bigger hubs for transit in China and fully developed. It has the money to regulate and maintain hygienic markets. I hate Shapiro but his "bigotry of low expectations" thing of not holding nations up to the same moral standards because you don't see them as on your country's level is bang on the mark here. The Chinese government can and should do better to subsidize here.

whalesalad 7y ago

At some point it’s the job of the government to protect people when they can’t protect themselves. Live and let live is fine until your actions are causing people to die all over the world due to completely new, evolved and deadly viruses. All the brutal shit starts in places like this where humans and animals are mixing in dirty environments and freak meetings literally birth a destructive new threat instantly. So on one hand you can interpret this as a “first world comment” but on the other hand you need to acknowledge that this level of negligence is no longer limited and isolated in scope to one tiny part of the world. It goes global overnight. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

forkLding 7y ago
It's about tradeoffs, if you ban live animal markets all over China for long periods of time, you will instantly cause far greater destruction on peoples' daily lives in China as people will suffer from poverty. There's probably millions of people going to go hungry because they lost their source of income and poor farmers in China don't have that much social mobility to get another job.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  And it's a part of their culture as well. They probably use these markets to socialize, these are primitive social networks and strengthen ties between neighbors and visitors alike.
  - supernova87a 7y ago
    I think you and commenter above have some weird romanticized (and uninformed) notion of simple country farmers who are scraping a living, country peasant style, trading stories on their grizzled/smiling faces as they keep a 100 year old family tradition alive. The Wuhan market in question was a professional concrete block building with heavy trucks bringing in stock and organized stalls with fluorescent lighting and walls. I'm sure they value your concern for their primitive social networks as they pay each other on Alipay and swap family stories on Wechat. My advice is to stop using your desire for some fiction to be true to tell people how you think things shouldn't be done.
    - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
      I'm always suspicious of "modernization" types like yourself. Mainly because they're quite often fascists in disguise. Populism and libertarian principles go hand in hand, because ultimately they leave the individual alone to live their life as they see best. They don't need your help, neocolonialist.
      - dang 7y ago
        Personal attacks and name-calling will get you banned here, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. We've had to ask you this before.
    - dang 7y ago
      You've got the kernel of a fine comment here, but the first and last bits cross into personal attack, which is not ok on HN. Especially the last bit. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
> All the brutal shit starts in places like this where humans and animals are mixing in dirty environments and freak meetings literally birth a destructive new threat instantly. The solution isn’t as easy as you think it is. These “mixing areas” are part of their culture. It’s part of their cultural context. Trying to impose Western cleanliness standards will take a very long time, it was tried in India with “Poo in the Loo” and I guarantee you there are people still taking a shit in open areas. And not washing their hands after either.
- whalesalad 7y ago
  > These “mixing areas” are part of their culture. It’s part of their cultural context. Trying to impose Western cleanliness standards will take a very long time Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to let your citizens shit on the side of the road and not wash their hands, or run open markets where human/animal waste and raw meat are mixed -- that is cool but then we need to say sorry no more planes are gonna be allowed from Wuhan because y'all don't know how to act.
  - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
    First off, the US lets people shit on the side of the road too, maybe you've never visited SF. My point is that having a regulation does not entail its enforcement or its compliance by the populace.

supernova87a 7y ago

This sounds like an uber-liberal comment, from the mentality that no one should be blamed and no one should be made to change their behavior because it's not their fault. By that logic we would never be able to have any regulations at all. There are objective health and safety standards that countries need to impose to move their development forward. As the other commenter stated below, when it affects others internationally is one such time when the need becomes painfully obvious. People will deal, and move forward. You underestimate how people will deal with it. China overnight banned gasoline powered motorcycles and mopeds, in the name of public health. Show me how that destroyed the lives of millions of people. Sometimes you can't live with all the excuses why it can't be done, and just do it and see why it can.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
infinity0 7y ago
You need to come up with an alternative for people to keep getting their income, before imposing knee-jerk regulations. Which is something that I'd guess you've accused "uber-liberals" of before.
- mistermann 7y ago
  One idea might be that China could some of the money they're currently using to build their overseas empire to instead renovate these local markets, and the farmers could continue operating but in a lower risk fashion. Not that this would ever happen, but I doubt it's economically impossible.
- asfarley 7y ago
  No, I don't think an alternative is necessary. It might be enough to say 'this harm is unacceptable; finding an alternative is the people's responsibility'. For example, this is how the law treats people who sell drugs. Do you make the same argument re: drug dealers needing an alternative source of income before we criminalize it?

phlipphlops 7y ago

I'm not versed in economics, but the solution doesn't have to be outright banning open air markets. Perhaps an alternative is putting work into building the infrastructure that would uplift the poorer farmers to a point where they wouldn't need these open air markets, and can instead support their livelihoods with less dangerous means.

tidenly 7y ago

These western romanticized talks of China like its some cute little network of farm villages while simultaneously calling people out for their "first-world takes" is really only showing your own ignorance. Wuhan isn't some backwater poor city, it's one of the bigger hubs for transit in China and fully developed. It has the money to regulate and maintain hygienic markets. I hate Shapiro but his "bigotry of low expectations" thing of not holding nations up to the same moral standards because you don't see them as on your country's level is bang on the mark here. The Chinese government can and should do better to subsidize here.