19 ms·

The only measure that needed to be done after 9/11, and it's surprising why this very effective measure wasn't implemented before - securing access to the pilot

The only measure that needed to be done after 9/11, and it's surprising why this very effective measure wasn't implemented before - securing access to the pilot's cabin. Everything else is overreaction cause by power grabbing by "security agencies" and politicians trying to score. The whole security system of today's world (especially in flying) is one pointless thing after another, holding on the a fear of "what if".

amatecha 7y ago
Doesn't help when it's a pilot who wants to crash the plane. Further, that makes it impossible for anyone to intervene in that case.
- dmix 7y ago
  Nor when we give licences and large vans/trucks to people who want to crash them. It's about managing risk and historically most hijackings have been by passengers and there is no significant loss to securing it with passenger jets having two pilots (ie, if one passes out), its win-win. Meanwhile the vast majority of what the TSA and a significant-enough chunk of what security agencies do is pure theater, in exchange for a significant headaches and loss of privacy/dignity/time/etc of citizens who fund and technically support such organizations - and everyone else visiting the country as it deters plenty of tourism and business travel.
- kayfox 7y ago
  Screening of pilots for various issues, mental and performance wise, has increased substantially since 9/11 as well.
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    Fuck no it hasn't... The FAA still systematically pulls medicals for mental health issues rather than allowing treatment. If your livelihood and a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt depend on it, you'll conceal extreme depression just fine. Pilots are terrified of getting help and an absurd proportion of the community is suffering from depression as a result.
- maximente 7y ago
  what are you saying here? you would argue that cabin should not be secure, so as to guard against a hypothetical attacker who completes professional pilot certification and gets a job as a copilot for the sake of (hopefully) overcoming the captain 1 versus 1 and brings down the plane? because that seems ridiculous
  - avip 7y ago
    I think he's subtly referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Hence having two or three of them up there. They can't all be suicidal...
commandlinefan 7y ago
> securing access to the pilot's cabin Well, no, actually it was impossible to get into the cabin from outside long before 9/11 (in fact, I think since the 70’s). The hijackers smuggled box-cutters on board and used the box cutters to kill stewardesses until the pilot agreed to open the door - after which they had full access to the plane.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > until the pilot agreed to open the door That's the problem -- that there was a door that could be opened. It seems to me that there shouldn't be. The pilots should have their own separate entrance from the exterior of the aircraft.
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    Let's not add more unnecessary holes to pressurized aircraft... Also, the pilots occasionally need to be able to get back to the cabin for troubleshooting in emergencies and to use the toilet/crew rest.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > the pilots occasionally need to be able to get back to the cabin for troubleshooting in emergencies and to use the toilet/crew rest. Toilet, crew rest, and meals can be provided in the pilot's cabin. Troubleshooting may be a good point, but perhaps it would suffice to have a tech in the non-cabin portion of the plane. In any case, it was just a thought. This is not an issue that I actually have a strong opinion about either way.
  - oAlbe 7y ago
    Is that actually the problem though? Or is it that you are still here discussing of ways to prevent airplane hijacking in a world where cows still kill more people that airplane hijacking terrorists? I don't mean to come across as condescending, I believe that as long as we spend our time talking about possible "solutions" to what-if, abstract problems, without addressing the real issues, we are just going to waste our time.
AWildC182 7y ago
The flight attendants union is also lobbying for all the extra security. They're well aware that thanks to their corporate overlords, flying is paramount Chinese water torture and they'd rather everyone be safely disarmed for when someone inevitably loses it.
indrax 7y ago
The most significant security response to the novel parts of the 9/11 attacks was done by the passengers on flight 93. It took an hour and seventeen minutes for them to get the news and adapt the strategy to hijackings.

amatecha 7y ago

Doesn't help when it's a pilot who wants to crash the plane. Further, that makes it impossible for anyone to intervene in that case.

dmix 7y ago
Nor when we give licences and large vans/trucks to people who want to crash them. It's about managing risk and historically most hijackings have been by passengers and there is no significant loss to securing it with passenger jets having two pilots (ie, if one passes out), its win-win. Meanwhile the vast majority of what the TSA and a significant-enough chunk of what security agencies do is pure theater, in exchange for a significant headaches and loss of privacy/dignity/time/etc of citizens who fund and technically support such organizations - and everyone else visiting the country as it deters plenty of tourism and business travel.
kayfox 7y ago
Screening of pilots for various issues, mental and performance wise, has increased substantially since 9/11 as well.
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Fuck no it hasn't... The FAA still systematically pulls medicals for mental health issues rather than allowing treatment. If your livelihood and a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt depend on it, you'll conceal extreme depression just fine. Pilots are terrified of getting help and an absurd proportion of the community is suffering from depression as a result.
maximente 7y ago
what are you saying here? you would argue that cabin should not be secure, so as to guard against a hypothetical attacker who completes professional pilot certification and gets a job as a copilot for the sake of (hopefully) overcoming the captain 1 versus 1 and brings down the plane? because that seems ridiculous
- avip 7y ago
  I think he's subtly referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
AWildC182 7y ago
Hence having two or three of them up there. They can't all be suicidal...

commandlinefan 7y ago

> securing access to the pilot's cabin Well, no, actually it was impossible to get into the cabin from outside long before 9/11 (in fact, I think since the 70’s). The hijackers smuggled box-cutters on board and used the box cutters to kill stewardesses until the pilot agreed to open the door - after which they had full access to the plane.

JohnFen 7y ago
> until the pilot agreed to open the door That's the problem -- that there was a door that could be opened. It seems to me that there shouldn't be. The pilots should have their own separate entrance from the exterior of the aircraft.
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Let's not add more unnecessary holes to pressurized aircraft... Also, the pilots occasionally need to be able to get back to the cabin for troubleshooting in emergencies and to use the toilet/crew rest.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > the pilots occasionally need to be able to get back to the cabin for troubleshooting in emergencies and to use the toilet/crew rest. Toilet, crew rest, and meals can be provided in the pilot's cabin. Troubleshooting may be a good point, but perhaps it would suffice to have a tech in the non-cabin portion of the plane. In any case, it was just a thought. This is not an issue that I actually have a strong opinion about either way.
- oAlbe 7y ago
  Is that actually the problem though? Or is it that you are still here discussing of ways to prevent airplane hijacking in a world where cows still kill more people that airplane hijacking terrorists? I don't mean to come across as condescending, I believe that as long as we spend our time talking about possible "solutions" to what-if, abstract problems, without addressing the real issues, we are just going to waste our time.

AWildC182 7y ago

The flight attendants union is also lobbying for all the extra security. They're well aware that thanks to their corporate overlords, flying is paramount Chinese water torture and they'd rather everyone be safely disarmed for when someone inevitably loses it.

indrax 7y ago

The most significant security response to the novel parts of the 9/11 attacks was done by the passengers on flight 93. It took an hour and seventeen minutes for them to get the news and adapt the strategy to hijackings.