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I don't see any actual logical fallacy here. Tu quoque is often misunderstood and mis-applied. Can you explain, in very specific terms, what you see as logica

I don't see any actual logical fallacy here. Tu quoque is often misunderstood and mis-applied. Can you explain, in very specific terms, what you see as logically incorrect here?

enraged_camel 7y ago
There's not much to misunderstand, as the fallacy is fairly simple. Indeed, you can take the example shown in the wikipedia article and apply it directly to this topic: Mozilla makes the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs. HN user matheweis asserts that Mozilla's actions or past claims are inconsistent with their argument. Therefore, the reasoning goes, the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs is false. -- It should be incredibly clear how this line of reasoning is fallacious and therefore invalid.
- jshevek 7y ago
  """ HN user matheweis asserts that Mozilla's actions or past claims are inconsistent with their argument. Therefore, the reasoning goes, the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs is false. """ This sequence strikes me as non sequitur and strawman. That is how "the reasoning goes" when one actually commits tu quoque, but merely pointing out hypocrisy is not tu quoque. Edit: It's possible that I have not read all of his comments. I'm only aware of this: "Mozilla wants young techies to consider ethics in their jobs? Rich words indeed from the corporation that more than doubled executive pay and then found themselves needing to lay off 70 people to save costs on a restructuring"
ForHackernews 7y ago
Being a hypocrite doesn't make you wrong. I believe everyone should give up flying because it's terrible for the environment, but I still fly on planes. My personal hypocrisy doesn't make air travel any better for the planet.
- jshevek 7y ago
  Yes, I understand tu quoque, I just don't see it here. It appears to me that one must strawman the grandparents post in order to shoehorn tu quoque onto it.
- pb7 7y ago
  Two things: 1) Mozilla isn't right or wrong in this case, they just lack credibility on the matter which, again, warrants the type of response that the original and many other commentators here had. 2) Your analogy isn't quite 1:1 with this situation. If you were a railroad tycoon that flew daily to perform business and made a public statement about how awful flying on planes is and how everyone should stop in lieu of train travel, it would be hard to take you seriously and you would be rightfully called out. Mozilla likes to identify itself with the ethical side yet it is no better than the companies it is criticizing, going as far as being partially funded by one of them.
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    1) I disagree. I believe Mozilla is right, and engineers should consider the ethical implications of the things they're asked to build. This argument would be valid even if made by Mark Zuckerberg himself.
    - jshevek 7y ago
      I'm fairly certain that the parent meant to say that the original criticism of Mozilla did not make any statement about whether the content of Mozilla's proselytizing is right or wrong.
      - ForHackernews 7y ago
        Ok, then I guess we can all agree Mozilla are big stinky baddies and also that this is good advice.
        pb7 7y ago

I don't see any actual logical fallacy here. Tu quoque is often misunderstood and mis-applied. Can you explain, in very specific terms, what you see as logically incorrect here?

enraged_camel 7y ago

There's not much to misunderstand, as the fallacy is fairly simple. Indeed, you can take the example shown in the wikipedia article and apply it directly to this topic: Mozilla makes the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs. HN user matheweis asserts that Mozilla's actions or past claims are inconsistent with their argument. Therefore, the reasoning goes, the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs is false. -- It should be incredibly clear how this line of reasoning is fallacious and therefore invalid.

jshevek 7y ago
""" HN user matheweis asserts that Mozilla's actions or past claims are inconsistent with their argument. Therefore, the reasoning goes, the argument that young people should consider the ethical issues before taking jobs is false. """ This sequence strikes me as non sequitur and strawman. That is how "the reasoning goes" when one actually commits tu quoque, but merely pointing out hypocrisy is not tu quoque. Edit: It's possible that I have not read all of his comments. I'm only aware of this: "Mozilla wants young techies to consider ethics in their jobs? Rich words indeed from the corporation that more than doubled executive pay and then found themselves needing to lay off 70 people to save costs on a restructuring"

ForHackernews 7y ago

Being a hypocrite doesn't make you wrong. I believe everyone should give up flying because it's terrible for the environment, but I still fly on planes. My personal hypocrisy doesn't make air travel any better for the planet.

jshevek 7y ago
Yes, I understand tu quoque, I just don't see it here. It appears to me that one must strawman the grandparents post in order to shoehorn tu quoque onto it.
pb7 7y ago
Two things: 1) Mozilla isn't right or wrong in this case, they just lack credibility on the matter which, again, warrants the type of response that the original and many other commentators here had. 2) Your analogy isn't quite 1:1 with this situation. If you were a railroad tycoon that flew daily to perform business and made a public statement about how awful flying on planes is and how everyone should stop in lieu of train travel, it would be hard to take you seriously and you would be rightfully called out. Mozilla likes to identify itself with the ethical side yet it is no better than the companies it is criticizing, going as far as being partially funded by one of them.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  1) I disagree. I believe Mozilla is right, and engineers should consider the ethical implications of the things they're asked to build. This argument would be valid even if made by Mark Zuckerberg himself.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    I'm fairly certain that the parent meant to say that the original criticism of Mozilla did not make any statement about whether the content of Mozilla's proselytizing is right or wrong.
    - ForHackernews 7y ago
      Ok, then I guess we can all agree Mozilla are big stinky baddies and also that this is good advice.
      - pb7 7y ago