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What does it matter which programming language they learn in high school? It's not supposed to be the language you use for work. It's supposed to teach you to p

What does it matter which programming language they learn in high school? It's not supposed to be the language you use for work. It's supposed to teach you to program. If anything it should be mandatory to learn something else. It might be the only non-work programming language they will ever learn. Cradle to grave Python / Java? Would Common Lisp / Haskell be considered a bad / good / ancient choice?

vorpalhex 7y ago
The student has to learn programming skills that can teach them the fundamentals quickly, ideally be transferable to most fields and hopefully something they can use freely on their own time. Python is great for this. You can have kids building whatever in class and they can go home and use the same tools and make videogames or visual novels or whatever else strikes their fancy, and when they get hired still use the same tools. My main issue with haskell is that it's likely not very transferable. That isn't to say you shouldn't be able to use it or teach it - maybe you can teach something unique with it you can't teach with other languages, but that needs a bit of explanation beyond just "well I prefer it". The education should serve the students, not tickle the fancy of the teacher.
- Filligree 7y ago
  > My main issue with haskell is that it's likely not very transferable. I thought this for a long time, having taught myself Haskell in university. I never regretted it, but I'll admit I never thought of it as a practical choice either. Then I ran into Rust, and found I was somewhat mistaken. ;-)
throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
Matlab and a variety of other paid languages think otherwise
Filligree 7y ago
I have fond memories of learning Common Lisp in university. They might be fond only because it's something I decided myself, but SLIME was a revelation. However... Common Lisp lacks a static type checker, or any decent type system. These days I consider that a catastrophically bad design choice, and I can't justify teaching it as anyone's first language. It's also, well, it's design by committee. Scheme might be better -- at least then you'd be learning about call/cc. If you aren't learning a language purely for work, then I think learning it should teach you something new. Scheme, Rust, Haskell, even Java/Kotlin if you've never used a decent IDE -- all of those can teach you something. CL sort of can't, anymore, though for a long time it could.
dickeytk 7y ago
technically it does not matter. The trouble is students HATE learning something they think is a waste of time. I've found it impossible to convince them that the first language doesn't matter. If they just learned anything they'd progress at roughly the same rate, but when their motivation is impacted it makes a bigger difference.
- fierarul 7y ago
  Interesting remark.

vorpalhex 7y ago

The student has to learn programming skills that can teach them the fundamentals quickly, ideally be transferable to most fields and hopefully something they can use freely on their own time. Python is great for this. You can have kids building whatever in class and they can go home and use the same tools and make videogames or visual novels or whatever else strikes their fancy, and when they get hired still use the same tools. My main issue with haskell is that it's likely not very transferable. That isn't to say you shouldn't be able to use it or teach it - maybe you can teach something unique with it you can't teach with other languages, but that needs a bit of explanation beyond just "well I prefer it". The education should serve the students, not tickle the fancy of the teacher.

Filligree 7y ago
> My main issue with haskell is that it's likely not very transferable. I thought this for a long time, having taught myself Haskell in university. I never regretted it, but I'll admit I never thought of it as a practical choice either. Then I ran into Rust, and found I was somewhat mistaken. ;-)

throwawayhhakdl 7y ago

Matlab and a variety of other paid languages think otherwise

Filligree 7y ago

I have fond memories of learning Common Lisp in university. They might be fond only because it's something I decided myself, but SLIME was a revelation. However... Common Lisp lacks a static type checker, or any decent type system. These days I consider that a catastrophically bad design choice, and I can't justify teaching it as anyone's first language. It's also, well, it's design by committee. Scheme might be better -- at least then you'd be learning about call/cc. If you aren't learning a language purely for work, then I think learning it should teach you something new. Scheme, Rust, Haskell, even Java/Kotlin if you've never used a decent IDE -- all of those can teach you something. CL sort of can't, anymore, though for a long time it could.

dickeytk 7y ago

technically it does not matter. The trouble is students HATE learning something they think is a waste of time. I've found it impossible to convince them that the first language doesn't matter. If they just learned anything they'd progress at roughly the same rate, but when their motivation is impacted it makes a bigger difference.

fierarul 7y ago
Interesting remark.