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Microsoft had shifted at least $39B in U.S. profits to Puerto Rico

73 points by zoobab 7y ago

gharding 7y ago
I wish people were able to think about what is really doing on here for themselves for a few seconds instead of swallowing whole the prepackaged rhetoric from either side; on one side we have "corporations are evil and must be taxed just as heavily as we want to tax the life out of all citizens to support others against their will", and on the other side we have "corporations are benevolent angels who are constantly persecuted and hunted for their life blood while only ever having the most pure intentions and thoughts any angel could ever have. Reality though is quite a bit in the middle-ground … corporations are enterprises headed by purely selfish and overwhelmingly people that are living embodiments of the dark triad of personality traits (narcissism fueled by psychopathy enacting machiavellianism), but on the other hand they are also very much not wrong in simply wanting to preserve and keep what they have, regardless of whether they got it illicitly and immorally in the first place, largely enabled by the other tribe of the dark triad that only carry a different banner, while also being corporatists, but feigning "concern for the common man" while devising ever more elaborate schemes for how to disposes people who actually earn things through productive and hard work of the fruits of their labor in order to support themselves and those who empower them. What it all can be reduced down to when you start disassembling the various shields, force fields, lies, misdirection, and deception to get to the core of things; what we are really facing is an actual, real, objective new form of the parasitic exploitation model humanity has known in many forms, but most often refers to its most obvious incarnation as slavery … we have a system of modern slavery, one that long ago realized it is way more profitable to not have to worry taking care of unproductive slaves you physically control, but rather you simply take a huge chunk of most people who are productive and your net profit is wildly higher. It's precisely one of the reasons that oligarchs make sure to push everyone's attention to the trope of slavery, so most people do not realize that "slavery" (a term referring to the systematic exploitation of the slavs … a European people … even far and beyond feudal serfdom that was also a "slavery" business model) pivoted its business model.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  Corporate "slaves" are some of the best paid in history. I'm sure the "model" figured out that if their labor is generally wealthier, it is far more productive and profitable.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    I wonder what the average Walmart slave earns.
    - g00s3_caLL_x2 7y ago
      Last I checked they don't have slaves. They have employees who are working by their own volition.
    - vladsanchez 7y ago
      What's up with the bullying my friend!? They're hard-working people and they're well compensated. No need to make a "slave" reference!
  - SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
    >"it" refering to people as "it" is kind of wrong also the only reason its better (if thats even true) is because things used to be so shitty that anything is better than that
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      > refering to people as "it" is kind of wrong. I don't agree. labor is functioning as a collective noun here. it's common to use "it" to refer to a collective noun (even if the collective is people), especially when there is a sense of the collective acting as a single unit (eg, the jury delivered its verdict).
      - ksec 7y ago
        And a gentle reminder not everyone is native in English.
g00s3_caLL_x2 7y ago
Who cares? Is it illegal? I'd be willing to bet 39B that it's not.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Um. Puerto Rico is part of the United States.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rgbrenner 7y ago
  Except PR citizens and corporations don't generally pay US income taxes. There are exceptions though, like if the income is from US activity. They do pay a few other federal taxes (like FICA, FUTA), but those aren't relevant to the article.
  - jdsully 7y ago
    No taxation without representation.
    - rgbrenner 7y ago
      Yes... I mention this because it's the only reason Microsoft's tax dodge works, since as Joe mentions, PR is part of the US.
- theonemind 7y ago
  Well, for a multinational corporation, the sentence still makes sense and doesn’t seem gratuitous or sensationalized, as they could say they shifted $39B of UK profit to Ireland or something. It does leave a vague and perhaps intentional implication of crossing some kind of border, so they could have said “$39 billion of profit in the incorporated US”, I suppose.
8bitsrule 7y ago
Some thoughtful consideration of corporate welfare: http://pitchforkeconomics.com/episode/corporate-parasites-how-taxpayers-subsidize-profits-with-rana-foroohar-and-david-dayen/ http://pitchforkeconomics.com/episode/corporate-parasites-ho...
Proven 7y ago
That's good, right? Governments destroy wealth while private businesses create it. It is better to have wealth retained by its rightful owners than expropriated and wasted by the government.
paxys 7y ago
"Who deserves a corporation's taxes?" is still an unanswered question globally. A company pays employees who pay income taxes in jurisdictions where they live and work. It pays payroll taxes in the regions it operates and employs people. It pays sales taxes on the materials it purchases and collects and transfers sales taxes for stuff it sells, to the state/jurisdiction where the sale takes place. It pays property taxes on buildings it owns. All of this is obvious, but then the company as a whole likely has some revenue and (maybe) profit - who taxes those? The country where it is registered? Where it has the most employees? Every country and jurisdiction it operates in or has sales in, with some agreed-upon split? This last question is the cause of every single "company XYZ paid nothing in taxes" or "company XYZ uses a tax haven" article out there.
cercatrova 7y ago
If the fitness function of your system is to accrue as much capital as possible, why wouldn't you perform actions that advances your fitness function?

73 points by zoobab 7y ago

I wish people were able to think about what is really doing on here for themselves for a few seconds instead of swallowing whole the prepackaged rhetoric from either side; on one side we have "corporations are evil and must be taxed just as heavily as we want to tax the life out of all citizens to support others against their will", and on the other side we have "corporations are benevolent angels who are constantly persecuted and hunted for their life blood while only ever having the most pure intentions and thoughts any angel could ever have. Reality though is quite a bit in the middle-ground … corporations are enterprises headed by purely selfish and overwhelmingly people that are living embodiments of the dark triad of personality traits (narcissism fueled by psychopathy enacting machiavellianism), but on the other hand they are also very much not wrong in simply wanting to preserve and keep what they have, regardless of whether they got it illicitly and immorally in the first place, largely enabled by the other tribe of the dark triad that only carry a different banner, while also being corporatists, but feigning "concern for the common man" while devising ever more elaborate schemes for how to disposes people who actually earn things through productive and hard work of the fruits of their labor in order to support themselves and those who empower them. What it all can be reduced down to when you start disassembling the various shields, force fields, lies, misdirection, and deception to get to the core of things; what we are really facing is an actual, real, objective new form of the parasitic exploitation model humanity has known in many forms, but most often refers to its most obvious incarnation as slavery … we have a system of modern slavery, one that long ago realized it is way more profitable to not have to worry taking care of unproductive slaves you physically control, but rather you simply take a huge chunk of most people who are productive and your net profit is wildly higher. It's precisely one of the reasons that oligarchs make sure to push everyone's attention to the trope of slavery, so most people do not realize that "slavery" (a term referring to the systematic exploitation of the slavs … a European people … even far and beyond feudal serfdom that was also a "slavery" business model) pivoted its business model.

Fjolsvith 7y ago
Corporate "slaves" are some of the best paid in history. I'm sure the "model" figured out that if their labor is generally wealthier, it is far more productive and profitable.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  I wonder what the average Walmart slave earns.
  - g00s3_caLL_x2 7y ago
    Last I checked they don't have slaves. They have employees who are working by their own volition.
  - vladsanchez 7y ago
    What's up with the bullying my friend!? They're hard-working people and they're well compensated. No need to make a "slave" reference!
- SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
  >"it" refering to people as "it" is kind of wrong also the only reason its better (if thats even true) is because things used to be so shitty that anything is better than that
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > refering to people as "it" is kind of wrong. I don't agree. labor is functioning as a collective noun here. it's common to use "it" to refer to a collective noun (even if the collective is people), especially when there is a sense of the collective acting as a single unit (eg, the jury delivered its verdict).
    - ksec 7y ago
      And a gentle reminder not everyone is native in English.

g00s3_caLL_x2 7y ago

Who cares? Is it illegal? I'd be willing to bet 39B that it's not.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Um. Puerto Rico is part of the United States.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rgbrenner 7y ago
Except PR citizens and corporations don't generally pay US income taxes. There are exceptions though, like if the income is from US activity. They do pay a few other federal taxes (like FICA, FUTA), but those aren't relevant to the article.
- jdsully 7y ago
  No taxation without representation.
  - rgbrenner 7y ago
    Yes... I mention this because it's the only reason Microsoft's tax dodge works, since as Joe mentions, PR is part of the US.
theonemind 7y ago
Well, for a multinational corporation, the sentence still makes sense and doesn’t seem gratuitous or sensationalized, as they could say they shifted $39B of UK profit to Ireland or something. It does leave a vague and perhaps intentional implication of crossing some kind of border, so they could have said “$39 billion of profit in the incorporated US”, I suppose.

8bitsrule 7y ago

Some thoughtful consideration of corporate welfare: http://pitchforkeconomics.com/episode/corporate-parasites-how-taxpayers-subsidize-profits-with-rana-foroohar-and-david-dayen/ http://pitchforkeconomics.com/episode/corporate-parasites-ho...

Proven 7y ago

That's good, right? Governments destroy wealth while private businesses create it. It is better to have wealth retained by its rightful owners than expropriated and wasted by the government.

paxys 7y ago

"Who deserves a corporation's taxes?" is still an unanswered question globally. A company pays employees who pay income taxes in jurisdictions where they live and work. It pays payroll taxes in the regions it operates and employs people. It pays sales taxes on the materials it purchases and collects and transfers sales taxes for stuff it sells, to the state/jurisdiction where the sale takes place. It pays property taxes on buildings it owns. All of this is obvious, but then the company as a whole likely has some revenue and (maybe) profit - who taxes those? The country where it is registered? Where it has the most employees? Every country and jurisdiction it operates in or has sales in, with some agreed-upon split? This last question is the cause of every single "company XYZ paid nothing in taxes" or "company XYZ uses a tax haven" article out there.

cercatrova 7y ago

If the fitness function of your system is to accrue as much capital as possible, why wouldn't you perform actions that advances your fitness function?