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Thanks, appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts (despite this item being flagged!) If the leave campaign had been explicitly about moving to

Thanks, appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts (despite this item being flagged!) If the leave campaign had been explicitly about moving to a Norway-style arrangement, for example, I'd have had much more sympathy for it, despite not wanting it personally. There's a reasoned argument that the main benefit of the EU is trade, although I would add that this view is complicated by the link between things like free movement of goods and free movement of people. I would arge that, while there would indeed be lies and bullshit in another referendum, they wouldn't be the same ones because they'd at least have to be largely based on the concrete reality of the deal. The person I really blame in all of this is that intellectual lightweight David Cameron. The referendum was mainly called to stop infighting in his party. It was done with no clear terms - i.e. what did Leave really mean? - which meant that people were able to argue past each other rather than engage on substantive points. His pantomime "renegotiation" before the referendum was utter crap, and the threats of "third world war" were completely overdone. (Although I do think it's worth remembering the role of the EU in the longest period of peace in Europe in history). I think the really sad thing in all of this is the culture war that it has provoked, which in my view is all to do with the nebulous idea of what "leave" meant. This leads to stupidities like a "Festival of Brexit", which celebrates something that almost half of voters explicitly voted against, and which will only deepen those fractures. I'm English, but have studied and lived in Scotland for a number of years at different points, and it has a big place in my heart. I would have voted no in the independence referendum too, and I can't help but think there's only one way that is going to go now, sooner or later.

arethuza 7y ago
I must admit its going to be fun re-using the "Its not about the money" arguments for Brexit to argue for Scottish Independence - the "No" campaign then being the origin of the "Project Fear" strategy.
- _Understated_ 7y ago
  For me, independence is entirely about the money. There is a 20% budget deficit on day one of independence: 8% from the "danger" of Brexit (SNP's own slides!) and 12% approximately from the Barnett formula. I asked a panel of SNP MSP's what they were going to do about the deficit since we'll technically be worse off than Greece on day one of independence and they wouldn't commit to an answer as they were waiting for George Osborne (the chancellor at the time) to provide them with exact figures... this was in a room full of Entrepreneurs in Ayrshire in 2016 (might have been 2017, can't quite remember the date). They got heckled for that answer. I maintain that if they can come up with something plausible to answer the question of what we do on day one when we are bankrupt, I will look at the rest of the evidence. Until then, there's no point. I will vote no. So the money angle is perfectly valid in the case of independence.
_Understated_ 7y ago
You make some interesting points, particularly about the culture war and the split within the people. It was always going to bring out the xenophobes as they now had a somewhat legit platform for their views. It's something I see up here in Scotland around the independence debate: It's a "them and us" thing. Although the SNP would never come out and say it themselves, they are happily stoking the anti-English fires knowing that people will vote (or not) based solely on that. Pisses me off to be honest since it means we can't get an actual debate going about the massive issues that independence will cause... it's basically all about "Fk the English" and that's all people see.

arethuza 7y ago

I must admit its going to be fun re-using the "Its not about the money" arguments for Brexit to argue for Scottish Independence - the "No" campaign then being the origin of the "Project Fear" strategy.

_Understated_ 7y ago
For me, independence is entirely about the money. There is a 20% budget deficit on day one of independence: 8% from the "danger" of Brexit (SNP's own slides!) and 12% approximately from the Barnett formula. I asked a panel of SNP MSP's what they were going to do about the deficit since we'll technically be worse off than Greece on day one of independence and they wouldn't commit to an answer as they were waiting for George Osborne (the chancellor at the time) to provide them with exact figures... this was in a room full of Entrepreneurs in Ayrshire in 2016 (might have been 2017, can't quite remember the date). They got heckled for that answer. I maintain that if they can come up with something plausible to answer the question of what we do on day one when we are bankrupt, I will look at the rest of the evidence. Until then, there's no point. I will vote no. So the money angle is perfectly valid in the case of independence.

_Understated_ 7y ago

You make some interesting points, particularly about the culture war and the split within the people. It was always going to bring out the xenophobes as they now had a somewhat legit platform for their views. It's something I see up here in Scotland around the independence debate: It's a "them and us" thing. Although the SNP would never come out and say it themselves, they are happily stoking the anti-English fires knowing that people will vote (or not) based solely on that. Pisses me off to be honest since it means we can't get an actual debate going about the massive issues that independence will cause... it's basically all about "Fk the English" and that's all people see.